Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

@Val: If people are so ignorant, wouldn't that make theories invalid? People would believe everything told to them? People would quit believing what they truly believe for something else? Or are you claiming that only those who have faith in Christianity are the ones who are ignorant?
Once more, I am not trying to make you angry.

"I swear by the soul I don't have, I am going to kill you."
―Boba Fett

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Seco Fett wrote:

It insults people just like it insults any other race. Wait...extinct? The Pygmies are very alive! They are a tribe of short people who live in the Congo. And of course Hawaii would use they're own god! A perfect example of how the story changed over the generations.

And yes, I watched the video, but it didn't really answer all of these questions. And yes, people died for it. All the Disciples except two were executed for they're faith. But seriously, who would die for something that is not real? I live in the "Show Me" state. I something isn't proved to me, I don't believe it. Do you think I am ready to die for something I just "have faith" in? I've seen more than you think, friend.

And according to the dates that video said, the Bible stuff happened (and was recorded) before most of it. The Christians have created a very likely time line.

No, the specific species mentioned in that article was extinct. Pygmies still technically exist, but not their previous forms. And Hawaii have their own gods, because they never came into contact with the European world. No story was ever told to them from ever-loving Christians.

Also, who wouldn't die for something that isn't real? Look at the idiots who created Scientology. Even though it's just a scam to get your money, people actually believe that ****. They think that the science fiction stories that L. Ron Hubbard wrote were the real versions of how life came to be. Not to mention Hubbard himself said "Make money. Make more money. Make others produce so as to make money . . . However you get them in or why, just do it." and "Make sure that lots of bodies move through the shop."

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Have people actually died for scientology? (I've never heard if someone has or not.) Was it fighting for what they believe, or in a religous war?

"I swear by the soul I don't have, I am going to kill you."
―Boba Fett

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Mandalore Hunter wrote:

@Val: If people are so ignorant, wouldn't that make theories invalid? People would believe everything told to them? People would quit believing what they truly believe for something else? Or are you claiming that only those who have faith in Christianity are the ones who are ignorant?
Once more, I am not trying to make you angry.

I was going to stay out of this buuuuut...

One of the things that always gets me is how limited the human ability is to truly understand the nature of reality.

I am a big Fan of Arthur Schopenhauer, a dead German philosopher, who believed that reality is totally subjective.

(Read a book) 

Anyway, not unlike Plato and Aristotle, what we have here is a debate about epistemology. How do we know what we know? What is the nature of knowledge and how does it come to be.
For me it's like Kevin Smith's character says in his movie DOGMA... "It doesn't matter what you believe, it's THAT you believe."  I mean we all have to believe in something, even if it is believing in nothing in principle, and we all have to live our lives as if we understand what is going on to some extent. It become ugly when people try to tell others what it is they are supposed to believe.

I went to grad. school and studied anthropology. I believe evolution is what got us here today. I BELIEVE IT. I don't know it is true. God may be there pulling all the strings but I just don't know and I think people that are overconfident in either direction are waaaaaay off base.  I mean, just look at the economy. If we have it all figured out why are we in such dire straights? Why do bad things happen to good people. Why do some women have to bleach their lip hair?

Does anyone see where I am going with this?

I think it's cool that we can have this kind of discussion here at the BFFC but I also think it's important to realize that some questions have multiple answers, or in some cases, no answers at all.:)

"D'oh!"
[url=http://www.bobafettfanclub.com/multimedia/galleries/thumbnails.php?album=lastupby&uid=1624]My Fan Art[/url]

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I'm sorry but the sources on Zeitgeist are bogus.  Most of them aren't even scholarly and have been rejected by many scholars Christian and non-Christian alike. 

I have not watched the entire thing as it is late right now but I will get to it.  The one thing that immediately jumped to me was how Christ was copied off of Horus as he was born on the 25th and 3 kings visited him.  Referring to the stars.

Christ was even born on the 25th.  That is undeniable.  This was something the Catholic church came up with.

And there were more likely than not more than 3 "Magi" visiting Christ (not kings as Zeitgeist claims).  The bible never specified, this was again the Catholic church coming up with a popular story which was probably attributed the mentioning of the 3 gifts the magi brought.  These are among some of the allegations the director of Zeigeist makes that are misleading and false.  Here is a blog that an Atheist made concerning parallels between Horus and Christ.

[i]Like I told your captain, the orphange attacked me.  It was self-defense.[/i]  -Richard the Warlock  [url]http://archive.lfgcomic.com/lfg0002.gif[/url]

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Yes, three kings and the 25th were arbitrary decisions. The kings were based off of the gifts, I'm not sure the reasoning on the 25th, but its common knowledge that we don't know his exact birthdate.

tachyonblade wrote:

I mean, just look at the economy. If we have it all figured out why are we in such dire straights? Why do bad things happen to good people.

Because humans are highly sinful and fallible. Thats why there is greed, and thats why our economy is so screwed over--people were foolish and frivolous with their money, and its hurting all of us.

Bad things happen to everyone. Sin and consequence don't distinguish their victims.


Oh, and Val--would you say Mohammad existed?

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Werda Verd wrote:

Yes, three kings and the 25th were arbitrary decisions. The kings were based off of the gifts, I'm not sure the reasoning on the 25th, but its common knowledge that we don't know his exact birthdate.

I think that was the Catholic church trying to draw people away from the pagan festivals taking place during the time.

[i]Like I told your captain, the orphange attacked me.  It was self-defense.[/i]  -Richard the Warlock  [url]http://archive.lfgcomic.com/lfg0002.gif[/url]

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Valthonin wrote:

At one time, everyone thought the world was flat, did that make it true? No, they were wrong and they realized it when scientists came and showed them they were wrong. And what 'high ranking scribe' are you talking about? Because that doesnt seem too credible.

Just as a general interesting, and slightly off-topic; I do apologise, fact, it is a common misconception that the general populace ever thought the world was flat and certainly never "everyone" thought it was so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

But yes.


Scepticism leads me to believe that if a Christian were to find evidence that Jesus (person) was never born and never existed, the Christians would cover that evidence up in any way possible.

That however is scepticism and the point of faith is to ignore scepticism.
Unfortunately that is something those who do not believe cannot comprehend.
After all how could you possibly ignore reason and evidence in the face of something as trivial as a thought.

I had quite a magnum opus planned for the rest of this post but I think I shall save it. At least for now.

Disciple Sift Through Lies; Few Grains Of Truth Be Known...

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Humorbot5 wrote:
Valthonin wrote:

At one time, everyone thought the world was flat, did that make it true? No, they were wrong and they realized it when scientists came and showed them they were wrong. And what 'high ranking scribe' are you talking about? Because that doesnt seem too credible.

Just as a general interesting, and slightly off-topic; I do apologise, fact, it is a common misconception that the general populace ever thought the world was flat and certainly never "everyone" thought it was so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

But yes.


Scepticism leads me to believe that if a Christian were to find evidence that Jesus (person) was never born and never existed, the Christians would cover that evidence up in any way possible.

That however is scepticism and the point of faith is to ignore scepticism.
Unfortunately that is something those who do not believe cannot comprehend.
After all how could you possibly ignore reason and evidence in the face of something as trivial as a thought.

I had quite a magnum opus planned for the rest of this post but I think I shall save it. At least for now.

You could possibly be right, yet you could be wrong. It depends on how trustworthy and honest that Christian is.

"I swear by the soul I don't have, I am going to kill you."
―Boba Fett

310 (edited by Humorbot5 Saturday, February 7, 2009 5:09 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Mandalore Hunter wrote:
Humorbot5 wrote:
Valthonin wrote:

At one time, everyone thought the world was flat, did that make it true? No, they were wrong and they realized it when scientists came and showed them they were wrong. And what 'high ranking scribe' are you talking about? Because that doesnt seem too credible.

Just as a general interesting, and slightly off-topic; I do apologise, fact, it is a common misconception that the general populace ever thought the world was flat and certainly never "everyone" thought it was so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

But yes.


Scepticism leads me to believe that if a Christian were to find evidence that Jesus (person) was never born and never existed, the Christians would cover that evidence up in any way possible.

That however is scepticism and the point of faith is to ignore scepticism.
Unfortunately that is something those who do not believe cannot comprehend.
After all how could you possibly ignore reason and evidence in the face of something as trivial as a thought.

I had quite a magnum opus planned for the rest of this post but I think I shall save it. At least for now.

You could possibly be right, yet you could be wrong. It depends on how trustworthy and honest that Christian is.

One would hope that they would realise that regardless of whether Jesus exists or not, the ethics he taught are still worth following and that the truth will set one free.

Disciple Sift Through Lies; Few Grains Of Truth Be Known...

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

But the real question is: Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy?

Sorry had to lighten the mood - couldn't help myself tongue

BFFC Moderator
It was like thousands of voices cried out for a sequel and were suddenly silenced...

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

BFFC-Mel wrote:

But the real question is: Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy?

Sorry had to lighten the mood - couldn't help myself tongue

Yes I do.

"I swear by the soul I don't have, I am going to kill you."
―Boba Fett

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Well, collectively, I've gotten more than 5,000 yen($50) from the tooth fairy...but but then she put a bunch of stinking braces on my mouth so I am mad a her...LOL

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

314 (edited by tachyonblade Sunday, February 8, 2009 1:03 am)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Werda Verd wrote:

Yes, three kings and the 25th were arbitrary decisions. The kings were based off of the gifts, I'm not sure the reasoning on the 25th, but its common knowledge that we don't know his exact birthdate.

tachyonblade wrote:

I mean, just look at the economy. If we have it all figured out why are we in such dire straights? Why do bad things happen to good people.

Because humans are highly sinful and fallible. Thats why there is greed, and thats why our economy is so screwed over--people were foolish and frivolous with their money, and its hurting all of us.

Bad things happen to everyone. Sin and consequence don't distinguish their victims.


Oh, and Val--would you say Mohammad existed?

Well, as often happens, people quote only those sections which support their position. I also asked the question "why do some women bleach the hair on their upper lips?"

My point was that it is stupid for humans to think they can impose too much of their own preconceptions on reality. Some questions have multiple answers or now answers at all.

Zen riddle: What is the sound of one hand clapping? yada, yada, yada...
These are called Koan in Japanese and there are a million of them. They are designed to make the mind think laterally not linearly.

And furthermore, why does the answer to those two questions alone have to be "Bad things happen to everyone. Sin and consequence don't distinguish their victims. " Why does sin have to have anything to do with it at all? Are there absolutely no other alternatives? Is it not possible that other belief systems are able to account for the nature of reality?

I guess I am mostly trying to make a case against closed-mindedness and intolerance.

And the tooth fairy thing...well, I have a really messed up image of what the tooth fairy looks like.

I have no idea why but as a child I thought that the tooth fairy looked like Muftak from the cantina scene
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Muftak

I know, I know how f...ed up is that? I was a weird kid.

"D'oh!"
[url=http://www.bobafettfanclub.com/multimedia/galleries/thumbnails.php?album=lastupby&uid=1624]My Fan Art[/url]

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Sin relates because bad consequences naturally stem from some one's sin. If someone murders or steals from someone, thats both a crime and a sin. If a friend lies about you and hurts you, thats not a crime, but is still a sin. Thats why sin relates.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I am still waiting for Val to show the evidence to the question i asked.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Werda Verd wrote:

My point was, to follow Christ was to go against everything you were told to believe. What Jesus claimed to be was the highest level of heresy. And he would have been known all throughout Israel--no Jew would believe in a heretic if he didn't exist.

Israel is the oldest surviving culture in existence, and their history hasn't changed significantly in thousands of years. The Torah, and by extension, most of the Old Testament, is likely the most accurate historical document in existence, because of its significance as a Holy Book. Not to mention, it portrays Israel poorly many times--they haven't changed it to show their best side. I'm going to trust that more than the Epic of Gilgamesh.

How is it that every nation that began in a similar time period as Israel was has disappeared, whether destroyed or unrecognizable in its current form. Yet Israel, neither the largest, strongest, or wealthiest of nations, still survive, largely unchanged. They have been beaten down, scattered to the corners of the earth, exiled from their homes, and nations have tried to destroy them throughout history--yet they survive and thrive. They are surrounded by countries that despise them. How are they possibly existing, if God wasn't protecting them. Answer that. No culture has survived so much for so long.

My final question is this--what do you have against the Bible? You decry its accuracy at every turn. Why?

I can see this argument is going no where. I hold to my beliefs. I know whats true. I look at the world, at its complexity, and know that its simply impossible for our world to be chance. Only God could create such life, and sustain it. Does Evolution not promote the law of survival of the fittest? Yet the lame and weak survive--how do you reconcile that? Wouldn't randomly evolved life that had always relied on survival of the fittest change?

Humanity, without a purpose, would be chaos. If life followed Evolution to the letter, the weak would be culled, and cultures would fall, or never rise at all.

I admire your devotion. I also see that this isn't going anywhere. Respectfully, we have our opinions. I'm gonna try not posting on here anymore, I dont think anyones changing anyone elses mind.

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
I am a Role Playing Gamer, like my father before me.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Mandalore Hunter wrote:

@Val: If people are so ignorant, wouldn't that make theories invalid? People would believe everything told to them? People would quit believing what they truly believe for something else? Or are you claiming that only those who have faith in Christianity are the ones who are ignorant?
Once more, I am not trying to make you angry.

Christians are not more ignorant than anyone else, i meant humanity in general. When people grow up being taught a religion, it is difficult to tell them that it may be wrong.

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
I am a Role Playing Gamer, like my father before me.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Trewqp wrote:

I am still waiting for Val to show the evidence to the question i asked.

Your question doesnt require evidence, it is poorly written. Humans DO NOT understand everything in the universe and we DEFINITELY do not manipulate it. You may be trying to ask something else...

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
I am a Role Playing Gamer, like my father before me.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Sorry for quadruple posting, I'm trying to address everyone's questions and concerns.

In conclusion, let me just say that I have nothing against believers. At all. I admire your faith and commend how you fight so feverishly for a cause. I really dont think anyones going to change minds here, we can all say our sources are bogus, that we lack evidence, etc. Come on guys, were not going anywhere here. I hope no one looks at anyone any different now.

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
I am a Role Playing Gamer, like my father before me.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Good point Val (The very last post). In fact, all this is off from the topic's first question. Perhaps this topic should be closed...

"I swear by the soul I don't have, I am going to kill you."
―Boba Fett

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Course.  You'll always be Lord of the Role Playing Section and one good RPer.  Looking forward to our next board epic we are bound to have sooner or later.  These little one are great and all but they get a bit tiresome after a while.

[i]Like I told your captain, the orphange attacked me.  It was self-defense.[/i]  -Richard the Warlock  [url]http://archive.lfgcomic.com/lfg0002.gif[/url]

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Yay! Now I can not have to discus all this without God being disappointed in me for quitting! Good Idea. I guess.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Werda Verd wrote:

Sin relates because bad consequences naturally stem from some one's sin. If someone murders or steals from someone, thats both a crime and a sin. If a friend lies about you and hurts you, thats not a crime, but is still a sin. Thats why sin relates.

I just can't get behind your concept of sin.

To quote Joseph Campbell "Whatever you do is evil to someone"

Who are we to decide what is evil and good?

By your standards I have lived most of my life in sin and I will burn in hell forever for it.  What the f..k kind of religion is that!? I think Jesus would be put off by most modern christians.  What about love and understanding and grace.

This is not the place to quote scripture but there is a lot there that I think a lot of christians overlook...I think you are referencing  modern christian dogma when you refer to sin. If that is the case then I think a lot of christians are south bound as well. The Bible, the church, the life of christ and modern, human, christians are all different things.

Who are we to judge, who are we to decide what is sin?

"D'oh!"
[url=http://www.bobafettfanclub.com/multimedia/galleries/thumbnails.php?album=lastupby&uid=1624]My Fan Art[/url]

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Not at all. Everyone has sinned their whole lives, more or less. I doubt many people have gone a day without sinning in some way. Difference is, whether you've accepted that Christ died to forgive you for your sins. Thats the only difference between me and you, here.

The "Christians" that he would be put off by are those that aren't actually Christians, or aren't living like Christians. And there are a LOT of those--genuine Christians who really don't live like it AT ALL.

I'm not saying I'm not sinful--Christians are too. We just are taught in clearer terms what the Bible defines as wrong.

For example, modern Christians are known for being anti-gay. Thats grown too far, to the point of many "Christians" hating gays themselves. Its true, its Biblically wrong. But that doesn't mean we can't love them. Many Christians have become way too condemning, and not loving enough. Christ WOULD be disgusted with many Christians. Even genuine Christians, I admit it. But we know where our hope of salvation comes from.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--