Re: Karen Traviss...

TaglarDreskk wrote:

I enjoy Traviss' books.  Why do hardcore fans of something always have to have it THEIR way?  You like the Boba from the original movies...ok, I'm cool with that.  You don't like the Boba from the books.  Ok...so then don't read them.  Nobody says that you have to like and read everything that even slightly relates to Boba...

But then again...I am talking to members of a Boba Fett fan club... big_smile  Eh, just get over it.  Pretend like the books don't exist in your world.  Don't pee on everyone else's cheerios.

you said a few interesting things in ur post, and i think ur new so welcome...hope you enjoy.
but i thought the sentence you wrote...
"pretend like the books dont exsist in your world"
i think you hit on something that Lucas has been doing since episode 2. which is why i dont read EU novels anymore. sure i dont like KT depiction of Fett. i used to read every thing w/ Boba in it, but i am sick of the novelists getting the green light to write an origin etc. then, it being totally ignored.
i would bet my starwars figure collection(except the boba fett, never risk the fett man), that the tv show will contradict the boba fett young readers novel series, which i read by the way. 

and dont worry ur cheerios r safe from me smile

"mmmm, pistol whip." -Homer Simpson
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Re: Karen Traviss...

Manji_Ninja wrote:

I must say the I enjoy her writing, and I don't think there's anything seriously wrong her characterization of Boba Fett. The only that bothers me is that she wrote that Sintas Vel might still be alive frozen in carbonite... I really don't like the direction that scenario could go in, but, I digress...
Perhaps you have to look at Travis's interpretation of Boba Fett as him changing as he has aged. People change due to their surroundings and experiences. Boba is in his 70's now, I think he's going to start realizing the real issues in his life, and try his best to make amends before it is too late. He's not going to be as obsessed with bounty hunting now that he's elderly, why should he concern himself with petty criminals when he has the chance to rebuild the Mandalorian society? I'm sure Boba wants to make Jango proud, and what better way to prove himself?

Side note: I love her RC series, you really grow attatched to all the wonderful characters. Fi=love.

that reminds me of one thing--i love how she introduced Boba's love of his father, and how he wants to honor him and live up to him. And she's mentioned the little black book, which i also found interesting.

as for RC, and Fi: i agree all the way. she has made some truly marvelous characters

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Karen Traviss...

Aw see I'm more of a Sev/Scorch/Ordo/Mereel=love for me. I really like the treatment KT has given that group. Its better than what others tried.

Meat is murder...... tasty tasty murder.
"Suggestion: Electrocution works well. Evisceration and Decapitation are also effective, or um, so I've heard."

Re: Karen Traviss...

I am just now reading "Blood lines" and  at 1st glance I like what KT was doing with Fett.... Then I read that Fett takes off his helm in public and eats snacks and he just lets some random girl sit in his cock pit and he takes off his helmet in front of her too?!! No. This is NOT the Fett I know and love. The Fett I know is hard and cold even if he was dieing he would still be this. He would NOT have a breakdown and start walking around without his helmet on and telling random girls about his life story. I don't mind people writing about Fett but KEEP HIS CHARACTER!!
That is what I have to say on this subject.

...I live by one rule and it is this: Freedom. Enslave no one and be no ones slave. No more no less. I am a hunter and no one rules me.  - Alo Fett

Re: Karen Traviss...

she's not some random girl, and no one knew who he was. well, she already knew!! she knows his--or rather, Jango's--face. do you know who she is yet?

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Karen Traviss...

nope but Boba dosn't know who she is and the way KT make him THINK is out of his character.

...I live by one rule and it is this: Freedom. Enslave no one and be no ones slave. No more no less. I am a hunter and no one rules me.  - Alo Fett

Re: Karen Traviss...

at the moment he doesn't---but it makes sense more later on. just finish that part and then come back--it'll make more sense

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Karen Traviss...

...ok....

...I live by one rule and it is this: Freedom. Enslave no one and be no ones slave. No more no less. I am a hunter and no one rules me.  - Alo Fett

Re: Karen Traviss...

my point is, when you find out who she is, it makes more sense

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

60 (edited by Alo Fett Wednesday, March 26, 2008 1:14 pm)

Re: Karen Traviss...

This should be at the start of the thread but I'll put it here too.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/spoiler_alert.png

(sorry it took so long for me to post this)  *I wrote this a while ago I am now on the last chapter* "I know she's Fett's granddaughter or maybe other relative, how else do you think she got that Hart of fire jewel or what ever it is. But none of that matters because Fett doesn't know who she is so why would he act any different?"

Knowing what I do now: I see your point about how it makes sense more later on, and I did like it when Han puts on a Mando helm. tongue  But as I have said before I think the way KT writes about Fett and what she makes him do reminds me of a little girl playing Barbie: *say in little girl voice* "And now Boba Fett goes and buys a new  robe the robe is black with flowers. After that Boba Fett gets hungry and goes into the bar to get a snack. He then talks to his new friend who has a pretty neckles..." and so on. Can you see how I can get a little upset?

...I live by one rule and it is this: Freedom. Enslave no one and be no ones slave. No more no less. I am a hunter and no one rules me.  - Alo Fett

Re: Karen Traviss...

The new friend with a pretty necklace knew who he was, without his helmet. NO ONE knew that. He would want to know how, and might recognize the Heart of Fire he gave Sintas. Haven't read it in probably a year, so i dont' remember it too well. Anyways, she writes him pretty well. Makes him more human, but still boba. And he couldn't go find Taun We with his full armor. He needed to find the info a little less conspicuously. Anyone else read it more recently.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Karen Traviss...

I admit, I liked Fett before Traviss "humanized" him, but this version isn't all bad.  Just different. I still liked it when he was the silent, lethal, and efficient mystery from before, but he still rocks with the new additional stuff Traviss added.  From the blurb of Invincible that I read, she writes Fett better than Denning.  Denning does okay, but makes him a bit too talkative, it seems.

Due to maintenance problems, the light at the end of the tunnel will not be in operation today.  Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.

63 (edited by Alo Fett Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:36 am)

Re: Karen Traviss...

I don't mind KT's Boba ether... BUT I do not think it should be canon. Also Werda, Fett in the book found very classified info on how Jacen Solo killed his daughter easily, I think he could have done the same thing with
Taun We.  I said there were some things I liked about KT's Fett, but thats just what it is KT's Fett not the real one. KT even says in Bloodlines "Fett wouldn't give up, he never had." Hello!??! According to YOU KT he gave up on his wife, and his kid. It is a fun new way to look at Fett But KT just throws out years of Fett history so that she can give Fett a heart. How sweet. I'm not saying that KT's work is all bad, but it should not be canon.

...I live by one rule and it is this: Freedom. Enslave no one and be no ones slave. No more no less. I am a hunter and no one rules me.  - Alo Fett

64 (edited by Orthar Friday, March 28, 2008 1:25 am)

Re: Karen Traviss...

Alo Fett wrote:

According to YOU KT he gave up on his wife, and his kid. It is a fun new way to look at Fett But KT just throws out years of Fett history so that she can give Fett a heart. How sweet. I'm not saying that KT's work is all bad, but it should not be canon.

Okay, first it IS canon, nothing can change that. Second Karen Traviss didn't create Sintas and Ailyn Vel (that was Beau Smith for Star Wars Tales 7), nor Sintas' failed marriage to Boba (written about for the first time for the History of Mandalorians by Abel Pena). I really don't see what all the fuss is about, if you don't like the stories then don't read them, if you prefer to think of Boba as he was in the films then just watch the films, or read the two dimensional portrayals in the various comic books. Remember that in order for a character to be written into the pages of a book as anything other then a couple of sentences, you need to know more about that character then you do for a film or comic, you need to get into the characters head, know his or her motivations for doing the things they do. That means the end result is a more rounded character then you see else-where, what's wrong with that? What we are seeing is a complete Boba, a whole person. What you seem to prefer is the Boba that Boba himself presents to the world, just the helmet and armour - his work clothes if you like - perfect for a film, great for a comic or cartoon but hardly riveting reading when you are reading a book about Boba.
What is it with the bee in peoples bonnets about Karen Traviss? Karen has simply joined up the various disjointed and in some cases conflicting tales about Boba and made them work together, filling in the gaps where the story needed it, explaining exactly why Boba killed a superior (again something she didn't create) and writing a story that works very well.
Do people attack George Lucas for filling in the gaps with Vader, and explaining his motivations and history? Or for telling us how the Emperor came to power or (heavens forbid) telling us the Emperors name and home world!!!!! Should we tell the man who created Star Wars that "well you see, I don't like what you did with Luke's mother so I think it shouldn't be canon"? People that don't like the prequels don't watch them, their choice; but they don't tell Lucas that it's "nothing more then a Fan Film". Think about it.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/OrtharRrith/OrtharRrith-1.jpg[/img]

Re: Karen Traviss...

Kandossii, vod! well said. Fett has had so much written about him, that someone needed to do it, and it can't be an easy job. He's had so many different things said about him, from him being a littl green alien to his original name having been Jaster Mereel. So putting it all together is NOT in the least an easy job. Give her a break--she's done a good job with what she's had to do. And he didn't entirely just "give up on his wife" he really didn't have a choice. Of course, he could have tried to find her again, but still.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Karen Traviss...

Also, keep in mind she's writing about a Boba Fett who is 72 years old in the Legacy of the Force series.  The Fett that most of you are talking about is a middle aged Fett, in his prime.  Age and experience changes a person significantly.  Finding out you have about a year or so to live puts a whole new wrench in the works, no matter who you are.  You begin to think of all the unfinished things you still have to complete before the end.  I do agree about the part where he takes off his helmet in front of Mirta before he finds out who she is.  I mean, he did it in front of Dengar, but he had already seen his face when he rescued him from the Dune Sea.  Maybe being around the Mandalorian Culture allowed him to relax just a tad.  I had always wondered if he wore his armor while he was a Journeyman Protector on Concord Dawn.  It wasn't exclusively an all Mandalorian colony, just inhabited by LOTS of Mandalorians.  And Jango's father wasn't wearing armor when the Deathwatch came calling, and he was a Journeyman Protector.  If you've had a chance to read the new book, Revelation, you'll see he's definitely not the pushover you're saying he is.  Definitely the same hard edged Fett, when it comes to combat, and being able to switch off his emotions.  I've also noticed through reading the newer books, that the way Fett acts around the Mandalorians is significantly different from how he acts around non-Mandalorians.  I guess because he's Mandalore now, he's constantly inundated in the culture now, even though he doesn't fit in all too well.  A lot of times, his ethics and sense of honor doesn't coincide with the Mandalorian way.  He really relies heavily on Beviin to help him understand and bridge that gap.  He even asks Beviin, in the book, why he helps him the way he does.  Fett has never been able to trust or rely on anyone for almost 40 some odd years (since being married to Sintas--I think it's safe to assume he trusted her), so he's spent his whole life in that mindset.  Sometimes it's hard to "unlearn what you've learned," so to speak.  Lord knows, I can sympathize.  Doing the same job for the military for 16 years, then switching career fields, it's much the same.  You still have your rank and respect and people still come to you with problems, but with the new job you feel totally out of your element.  In Fett's case, he's still the Fett man.  Everyone knows that.  But now he's Mandalore, and he really doesn't know how to be a Mandalorian, even though he's trying to be a good Mandalore.  A Mandalore his father would be proud of.  Plus, for him his word is his bond.  He gave Fenn Shysha his word, and now he's trying to live up to that, and deal with all the new family issues.  And let's face it.  Fett isn't  a family man.  Even he knows this.  But he does feel responsibility for these people, because he feels they ended up where they did because of him.  So, he's trying to make good with that, and desperately trying to balance the two.  That's why I think he's more in his element during the combat scenes, and when you read it, you also get that sense.  It's like knowing , "Okay, this I know I can do and do it well."  It's almost like his break from everything else that's unfamiliar.  It puts him back in his element, so to speak.  Does that make any sense?

--Sadriel Fett (BFFC Moderator)
"I'm just a simple Fan, trying to make my way in the universe."

67 (edited by Alo Fett Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:20 am)

Re: Karen Traviss...

I had a big post (as big as the last couple you (plural) have posted but it didn't post, I left and someone exited it before I got back. So here it is sweet and simple:
I DO like KT's work.
I do not think it should be cannon.
I do see that we can't do anything about it.

Orthar wrote:

Okay, first it IS canon, nothing can change that. Second Karen Traviss didn't create Sintas and Ailyn Vel (that was Beau Smith for Star Wars Tales 7), nor Sintas' failed marriage to Boba (written about for the first time for the History of Mandalorians by Abel Pena). I really don't see what all the fuss is about, if you don't like the stories then don't read them, if you prefer to think of Boba as he was in the films then just watch the films, or read the two dimensional portrayals in the various comic books. Remember that in order for a character to be written into the pages of a book as anything other then a couple of sentences, you need to know more about that character then you do for a film or comic, you need to get into the characters head, know his or her motivations for doing the things they do. That means the end result is a more rounded character then you see else-where, what's wrong with that? What we are seeing is a complete Boba, a whole person. What you seem to prefer is the Boba that Boba himself presents to the world, just the helmet and armour - his work clothes if you like - perfect for a film, great for a comic or cartoon but hardly riveting reading when you are reading a book about Boba.
What is it with the bee in peoples bonnets about Karen Traviss? Karen has simply joined up the various disjointed and in some cases conflicting tales about Boba and made them work together, filling in the gaps where the story needed it, explaining exactly why Boba killed a superior (again something she didn't create) and writing a story that works very well.
Do people attack George Lucas for filling in the gaps with Vader, and explaining his motivations and history? Or for telling us how the Emperor came to power or (heavens forbid) telling us the Emperors name and home world!!!!! Should we tell the man who created Star Wars that "well you see, I don't like what you did with Luke's mother so I think it shouldn't be canon"? People that don't like the prequels don't watch them, their choice; but they don't tell Lucas that it's "nothing more then a Fan Film". Think about it.

Yes Boba did quit. He is the best and the best does not give him self an excuse. Don't you think that if Boba tried hard enough he could have worked it out? He did with the sarlacc and when he was a kid not to mention many many other times.

What the Fuss is all about is that they are cannon! wow.

Yes people DO attack George Lucas for filling in the gaps. Also here is a link to prove it: http://www.bobafett.com/boards/viewtopi … 636#p62636 
You just gasped your self, I assume this means you didn't want to know. I have no qualms about what Lucas makes because he's GL, he's the man, the head, ect... not KT she is making Boba into her OWN (this is waht I'm trying MOST to get across) character, NOT the Boba in the movies, NOT the Boba in the old books, NOT the true Boba (But I guess it is now) do you see?

NOTE: I am not mad or upset and Orthar I have the up most respect for you and the others. You are not only a good debater but also fun to debate.

...I live by one rule and it is this: Freedom. Enslave no one and be no ones slave. No more no less. I am a hunter and no one rules me.  - Alo Fett

68 (edited by Valthonin Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:30 am)

Re: Karen Traviss...

Alo, anything she writes goes through Lucas first. He has to approve what she writes about Boba. If he likes what she wrote and approves it then technically, it is what GL wanted. You may say the Karen is not top dog when it comes to Star Wars and Boba Fett, but if Lucas approves what she writes about Fett and makes it canon then that IS what Lucas wants. And who is the "true Boba"? How can you answer that question? That man is covered in more mystery than most people think. For me, the "true Boba" has to be what GL says it is. Lucas created Boba Fett, it is his right to do what he wants with that character. He doesnt have to listen to us die-hard Fett fans. If he chooses to place Fett's fate in the hands of Karen Traviss and approves what she writes then that IS the true Boba.

In reality, there is really nothing we can do. We can beg and plead, but in the end Lucas will do with Fett whatever he sees fit.

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
I am a Role Playing Gamer, like my father before me.

Re: Karen Traviss...

If that is the case, I guess we should go with it.

A man's worst enemy can't wish on him what he can think up himself. Yiddish saying

Re: Karen Traviss...

Alo Fett wrote:

NOTE: I am not mad or upset and Orthar I have the up most respect for you and the others. You are not only a good debater but also fun to debate.

Lol! No offence taken, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I will admit to enjoying these types of (friendly) arguments.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/OrtharRrith/OrtharRrith-1.jpg[/img]

71 (edited by Alo Fett Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:18 pm)

Re: Karen Traviss...

Good!  The other day I was talking to a girl (who I used to sort of like) and one of my buds said something about demarcates and she said "Do you have a problem with demarcates and I said "oh....ummm...no?".  A lot more happened and we started to debate and in the end I said somethings about demie's as we walked into a Taco Bell she said "I have to use the the ladies room" and thats when it hit me that she took it a little more seriously then me. When she came out she wouldn't let me pay for lunch, I apologized to her if I said something offensive, and now its ok. ANYWHO that just goes to show that people can take thing the wrong way. So thanks for understanding.

...I live by one rule and it is this: Freedom. Enslave no one and be no ones slave. No more no less. I am a hunter and no one rules me.  - Alo Fett

Re: Karen Traviss...

And the debate goes on...

When this topic was active, I hadn't read any of the KT novels yet, and therefore had no imput.  I confess I've still only read the first couple of Commando books, and still won't be able to comment on Boba, but as for her style and handling of the Clones and the Jedi I can talk about.  With the recent flare-ups over KT's work and the fact that I and a few new members might have some fresh input on the thread, I thought I'd bring it back.  So here goes..

On first glance I loved and was a little proud of KT's ideas and writing for the Clones.  Proud of myself for her ideas because she went in very similar directions that I did before I knew anything about her writings: Direct control and strong Mandalorian influence by not only Jango, but many Mandalorian instructors, a deep Mandalorian bond/cult within the Clone ranks, and a recognizable military culture from the Clones and the Mandos with traces to modern military style and methods. 

However, my biggest problems with her writing is her over-humanization of generally everybody, and the path she's taken the Mandalorians down. 

By over humanization, I'm refering directly to her handling of the clones and the Jedi in her works. 

For the clones, can we assume that they are normal humans?  We KNOW the Kaminoans played with their minds, altering their natural tendencies.  And, if they were just normal humans, could we expect them to do the job that they do.  KT sees these problems, and addresses them regularly.  Loneliness, battle-fatigue, revolt against authority, and an entire range of issues you'd be forced to deal with if you handling human beings under these circumstances. 

My views on the clones, at least the later Stormtroopers, was that they were mentally deficient by design.  Their leaning abilities and free will would have been sacrificed in order to ensure a pliable fighting force that would obey, no matter what the order.  Traviss, in order to have the lovable yet ultra deadly Commandos that she wants to write about, seems to have thrown this out despite the MOVIE Canon quote that the clones were made more "docile."  I honestly don't see where she has applied this at all to her clones.  I understand that the Commandos would have much less if any of this brain alteration, and especially not the ARCs or the NULLs.  However, she has given a very sweeping personality to all the clones she writes about, and I really don't see where she has applied any of that dampener to the clones or their abilities.

I believe that this is a direct result to her love and compassion for real life military personnel.  I get the distinct feeling from her writings that she's not writing about Republic clones, but real-world members of the armed services.  Her insight is a blessing and a curse on her SW fiction.  It's an immense insight into military procedure, doctrine, and the military mindset, and I believe she's excellent at portraying all of these things.  HOWEVER, it's killing her ability to make them less then complete individuals, which her writing in Triple Zero make very obvious.  I know that her clones are very evoking and powerful characters, but it doesn't strike me as real to the situation.  Maybe that's just me

For the Jedi, again, she makes them too real-world.  Because I've only read about two of her Jedi so far, I'll write it off to a rare instance; but both the Jedi in Triple Zero come across to me as having been through a 9 week Jedi boot-camp rather then having been raised from infancy in the Order.  They don't show any of the characteristics from the Movie canon Jedi I've seen and in my view they're all too open minded to the Clones and their Mando'ade ways.  However, I'll write this one off as simple observations, as all the movie Jedi we HAVE seen were all Elite of the Order; perhaps the argument could be made that the lesser Jedi of the Order were more like this.  I mention it only because they go against my personal notions about the Jedi as a whole.

My deepest issue with KT is her perception of the Mandalorians as a people.  These are a people that during the Republics ancient times had wiped out entire races and tried almost successfully to conquer the entire galaxy.  They'd made their names known for the next 4,000 years only as mercenaries, bountyhunters, and raiders.  As late as 200 BBY they wiped out another entire race sentient species, certainly indicating to me that their ways hadn't changed much over the last 4,000 years.  They have always been characterized as aggressive, warlike, and totally militaristic.       

Yet all that seems to count for little or nothing with Karen.  I've heard the claim that she's using a Celtic base for the Mandalorians, but I again see her using modern military men as her primary influence.  This is a comparison that I strongly do Not think she should make, or at least not in the fashion she's using it for.  Yes, the comparison between the TACTICS and even the Mind-Set of say a US or Royal Marine could be used to great effect for the Mandalorians.  But using the typical modern military man's style of private life for the Mando's is a very bad comparison.  As I stated above, the Mandalorians are certainly NOT the good guys.  They have a direct history of some very dark and evil deeds.  To suddenly say that they are no different then the average modern military man or woman I feel is a bad representation of what we know to be Mandalorian, or is a gross insult of the typical military man today.  I'm sure this isn't KT's intent, but it's what I see when reading about Skirata and the Mandalorians in general from KT's point of view.

There needs to be a point created where the Mandalorians became a more common people that we can relate ourselves and our military to, or she needs stop fantasizing the Mando'ade or the real-world military as something they're not.       

That's my take

"You set a code to live by.  I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted...I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other men, and I require the same from them."

Re: Karen Traviss...

I dont think you could have described it better Ralin.

[i]"Sir, Finishing this Cake."[/i]

Re: Karen Traviss...

Hey, thanks ner vod.  Glad if I wasn't just rambling along half cocked.  I admit there's a lot of her material that I haven't read yet, so I won't take a firm 'I hate her work' stance; in fact there's a great deal to her writing I love.  I also admit that, as those who I've talked to with much depth about my FanFic know, I created a lot of things about the Mandalorians myself before I'd ever even heard of KT or much of the EU, so I have a biased opinion on the mater just because I tend to like some of my ideas better then her's or others. 

I'm just highlighting some of the things that concern me regarding the places she seems to be headed with her work that I've read so far, and her over-use of personal connections to real-world people for her characters in my opinion.

"You set a code to live by.  I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted...I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other men, and I require the same from them."

Re: Karen Traviss...

That is exactly one of my biggest complaints about her is that she makes the Clones into something their not, she takes them and twists them. And you put it so much better than I could have.

Reality doesn't care if you believe in it.
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