Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Micro-evolution is proven.  Macro-evolution is more difficult to prove, especially with factors like irreducible complexity involved.  How did complex systems like eyeballs and ears evolve through random mutations?

"If you don't want me to eat you.....SAY SOMETHING." 
-Captian Murphy

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Even the smallest of Eukariyotic cells are complex. Every creature up from Bacteria is a complex little system. Some are more complex then others. Work your way up on the scale and you can see how every creature is a little more complicated.

Half Dragon, half human, 100% Fett!

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

I'm aware of how complex cell systems can be, flagellums, cillia, ribosomes, etc.  How does the theory of evolution account for these systems?  It would be impossible to evolve them piece by piece, as the flagellum is made up of thirty-five different proteins assembled in a specific order.  Should the first piece be randomly mutated into place, it would pose no benefit to the lifeform, in fact probably it would be a hindrance and decrease it's chances of propagating the mutation into new cells.

"If you don't want me to eat you.....SAY SOMETHING." 
-Captian Murphy

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

I don't understand why it is so hard for you to link "macro evolution" to micro evolution. My say is whatever changes on the microscopic level, results in a million times bigger changes on a larger scale when it effects DNA, throughout several generations (and inter-breeding with different genomes, gotta include that factor too even if it sounds nasty).

If you search for the answer the serious way, you'd just look into an encyclopedia instead of just randomly arguing on a forum that's not directed specifically to post-grad science majors, and my knownledge isn't that fresh enough to start a general lecture on biology.

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Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

I guess I'll go and do that then.
*walks out of room in a huff*

"If you don't want me to eat you.....SAY SOMETHING." 
-Captian Murphy

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

BalanceSheet wrote:

I'm aware of how complex cell systems can be, flagellums, cillia, ribosomes, etc.  How does the theory of evolution account for these systems?  It would be impossible to evolve them piece by piece, as the flagellum is made up of thirty-five different proteins assembled in a specific order.  Should the first piece be randomly mutated into place, it would pose no benefit to the lifeform, in fact probably it would be a hindrance and decrease it's chances of propagating the mutation into new cells.

Who said the cells didn't make mistakes? Its not like they're still perfect today, otherwise we wouldn't have genetic cancers, and other genetic disorders. And some of the mutations were for the good. And people ARE still changing. In the 1700's, 6 foot tall George Washington was considered a giant. 300 years later a height of 6 feet is normal for men. Who's to say that in several hundred years that 7 or 8 feet will be normal for men? Or we might stay this same size, no one knows.

Half Dragon, half human, 100% Fett!

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Daenna wrote:

To those who don't believe or disagree in evolution theories: what would be so bad about it if they were true?

Well, the reason it would be bad in to me, if evolution is true, would be that my personal Christian worldview would be falsehood and lies.

Life can not form from non-life...simple fact. Why in the world then, do evolutionists say that a big explosion (which in itself is a destructive force and the only creation it does is creating something bad, not something good) not only created this perfect universe of ordered plannets and earth-the perfect life sustaining plannet, but also created the simplest form of life. Even today, scientist and all of their knowledge *CANNOT* put together protiens and make life....they just can't! It doesn't make sense to me that an explosion which causes negative effect, could create this beautiful world and life on it.....i say, impossible!      only a superior being,(God) could have formed life...

Look at the bacterial flagellum for a min.   since many are at least slightly familier with it. The bacterial flagellum is the most efficient motor mechanism on the universe. It is made up of 40 protein parts, 30 of which are unique to it. According to evolutionist theory, the bacterium flagellum was slowly created over the whatever...millions of years. How can that be if the flagellum cannot funtion without any 1 part of it...much less for a million years without being discarded by natural selection??!?         Scientist came up with a co-option. This was that it could be created if it borrowed parts from another molecular machine. But as i said before, 30 of the 40 parts are unique to it making it an extremely unlikely possibility. The different proteins also have a specific sequence...so you couldn't just throw them all together or collect 1 random piece at a time. Only could be created.

                                                                         {MW} MS9 smile

[b]{MW}-[color=red]"Death and Destruction to Our Enemies"[/color][/b] 
[i] "I love that crunchy sound they make when they die."  ―RC-1207 (Sev), killing Geonosian [/i]

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

MandalorianSpy9 wrote:
Daenna wrote:

To those who don't believe or disagree in evolution theories: what would be so bad about it if they were true?

Well, the reason it would be bad in to me, if evolution is true, would be that my personal Christian worldview would be falsehood and lies.

Life can not form from non-life...simple fact. Why in the world then, do evolutionists say that a big explosion (which in itself is a destructive force and the only creation it does is creating something bad, not something good) not only created this perfect universe of ordered plannets and earth-the perfect life sustaining plannet, but also created the simplest form of life. Even today, scientist and all of their knowledge *CANNOT* put together protiens and make life....they just can't! It doesn't make sense to me that an explosion which causes negative effect, could create this beautiful world and life on it.....i say, impossible!      only a superior being,(God) could have formed life...

                                                                         {MW} MS9 smile

I totally agree MS9

{MW}--[color=#FF0000]"Death and destruction to our enemies!"[/color]
"I wonder what the weather is like on Kamino right now?" Delta 62, Scorch.

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Daenna wrote:

To those who don't believe or disagree in evolution theories: what would be so bad about it if they were true?

Nothing would be bad about it at all, except that the Bible wouldn't be perfect, and if the Bible were imperfect then I would have no basis for my faith in God.  Then there would be no purpose to my existence.  I have nothing wrong with the theory except that it is unbiblical, and except for when college professors/students use it to bully me.

BalanceSheet wrote:

How did complex systems like eyeballs and ears evolve through random mutations?

BalanceSheet, please, don't ever use that argument again.  My anthropology class showed the "Eye evolution" video over and over again, and then snickered about, "Haha, and that's the argument all those stupid Christians used!  What a bunch of morons!"  They have an answer for everything we can come up with, and although we also have an answer for everything they come up with, our answers are "wrong" because they are "unscientific," and since the evolutionists are in charge of the educational system, they decide who wins the debate.  Seriously, I found out this year that there's no point in standing up for yourself, except that you save yourself the shame of being a coward.  They'll just punish you by ruining your grades.  It is much better to just avoid the topic entirely and never, ever take a class entitled Darwin.

Oh, and evolutionists, please don't take this personally.  I have nothing against you, just against college professors who bully me.

Estuans interius ira vehementi SEPHIROTH!
BFFC Moderator

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

BFFC Chrys wrote:

BalanceSheet, please, don't ever use that argument again.

As soon as you tell me what their counter-argument is.  I don't get much exposure to that stuff (yet) and I would like to know how they explain irreducible complexity.

"If you don't want me to eat you.....SAY SOMETHING." 
-Captian Murphy

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

BalanceSheet wrote:
BFFC Chrys wrote:

BalanceSheet, please, don't ever use that argument again.

As soon as you tell me what their counter-argument is.  I don't get much exposure to that stuff (yet) and I would like to know how they explain irreducible complexity.

i agree, there is no way anyone can counter the irreducable complexity of everything*** in creation. The eyeball is a complex organ...and a good complex example...yet most of creation is sooo complex that it has the same effect.

                                                 

                                                       {MW} MS9

[b]{MW}-[color=red]"Death and Destruction to Our Enemies"[/color][/b] 
[i] "I love that crunchy sound they make when they die."  ―RC-1207 (Sev), killing Geonosian [/i]

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Okay, guys, watch the eye video yourself.  This is the same one I've seen countless times (unless the internet version is shorter.)  Seriously, the mere mention of the word "eye" sends evolutionists into laughing fits.  It's quite depressing.  That or maybe I just had an inordinate number of jerks in my class.

Estuans interius ira vehementi SEPHIROTH!
BFFC Moderator

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

BFFC Chrys wrote:
Daenna wrote:

To those who don't believe or disagree in evolution theories: what would be so bad about it if they were true?

Nothing would be bad about it at all, except that the Bible wouldn't be perfect, and if the Bible were imperfect then I would have no basis for my faith in God.  Then there would be no purpose to my existence.  I have nothing wrong with the theory except that it is unbiblical, and except for when college professors/students use it to bully me.

Ever thought that the Bible's content was mostly metaphorical and not simple fact-reporting?

I'm not trying to say you'd believe less in God if you'd question the Bible sad I'm just trying to say that changing your point of view is not going to shift your faith or what you believe in.

Belief is a lot about opinion and knowledge. Faith is what you rely on when you doubt yourself... But oh well, I guess you're all thinking I'm being blasphemous now hmm

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39 (edited by RC-3222 Monday, May 22, 2006 9:41 am)

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

CeciliaCrimsondragonFett wrote:

Evolution is not theory, its a proven, true process that occurs every day.

Alright, not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious: how is evolution a proven theory?

If you think about it, everything tends to a state of disorder:  Just go to some land that no one takes care of and you'll see what I mean-- trees fallen down, grass and weeds grown up, and so on. If everything tends to a state of disorder, then how can people evolve to become better? Take sickle cell anemia, for example. It has been proven that people who have sickle blood cells have a higher survival rate when battling malaria, therefore supposedly supporting macroevolution. However, sickle cells can block blood flow, resulting in,

   1.  pain episodes
   2. strokes
   3. increased infections
   4. leg ulcers
   5. bone damage
   6. yellow eyes or jaundice
   7. early gallstones
   8. lung blockage
   9. kidney damage and loss of body water in urine
  10. blood blockage in the spleen or liver (sequestration)
  11. eye damage
  12. low red blood cell counts (anemia)
  13. delayed growth


The result is that, even though it "helps" people with malaria, it is more beneficial to a person if they don't have sickle cell anemia.

"Whoever is a highly evolved, super-genius raise your hand."  *raises hand*   "Oh."     
-----[color=#FF0000]Rodney McKay[/color]

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

ARC Fett wrote:
Daenna wrote:
True Warrior wrote:

I for one think that there were only a couple people on Earth, then they repopulated from Africa and spread to Islam(or whatever) to were the Bible started. I hope I dont get in trouble for mentioning the Bible on the boards. hmm

                                                    {MW} TW cool

from Africa and then to the Middle East ("Islam" is a religion wink), and the Bible start with the genesis, and basically that's where God created Earth, so what you said doesnt make any sense tongue I guess you meant the place where Jesus was born?... that's the Middle East too smile

Well it looks like there's 2 people who are Christians here..... hmm

3, i'm one too, i dont believe in evolution, but thats just my opinion

4!! I am a Christian!! YAY!!!
I think evolution is a load of crap. I mean, just the thought of evolution makes me sick (not really but you get the point, I think)


-Boba Dude

{MW}--[color=#FF0000]"Death and destruction to our enemies!"[/color]
"I wonder what the weather is like on Kamino right now?" Delta 62, Scorch.

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Daenna wrote:
BFFC Chrys wrote:
Daenna wrote:

To those who don't believe or disagree in evolution theories: what would be so bad about it if they were true?

Nothing would be bad about it at all, except that the Bible wouldn't be perfect, and if the Bible were imperfect then I would have no basis for my faith in God.  Then there would be no purpose to my existence.  I have nothing wrong with the theory except that it is unbiblical, and except for when college professors/students use it to bully me.

Ever thought that the Bible's content was mostly metaphorical and not simple fact-reporting?

I'm not trying to say you'd believe less in God if you'd question the Bible sad I'm just trying to say that changing your point of view is not going to shift your faith or what you believe in.

Belief is a lot about opinion and knowledge. Faith is what you rely on when you doubt yourself... But oh well, I guess you're all thinking I'm being blasphemous now hmm

I don't think your blasphemous!
You have an opinion and thats good.

{MW}--[color=#FF0000]"Death and destruction to our enemies!"[/color]
"I wonder what the weather is like on Kamino right now?" Delta 62, Scorch.

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

BFFC Chrys wrote:
Daenna wrote:

To those who don't believe or disagree in evolution theories: what would be so bad about it if they were true?

Nothing would be bad about it at all, except that the Bible wouldn't be perfect, and if the Bible were imperfect then I would have no basis for my faith in God.  Then there would be no purpose to my existence.

Oh, and evolutionists, please don't take this personally.  I have nothing against you, just against college professors who bully me.

The first part is EXACTLY  how I feel. As to the last part; AK-47s smile .

take it easy baby take it as it comes

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Let's not let this thread get out of hand guys....please try not to bring up stuff like AK-47 and evolution is a load of crap.....lol   i started this thing just to see how different people who believe in evolution, refute what i beleive in and their oppinions....i think it is only fair to have equal sides and equal oppinions. There is no need to bash somone else's idea...but rather discuss it in an orderly fashion....thanx...   big_smile          soo......  did those of you who favor evolution read my post on the bacterial flagellum?  jw what you guys thought of that???

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[b]{MW}-[color=red]"Death and Destruction to Our Enemies"[/color][/b] 
[i] "I love that crunchy sound they make when they die."  ―RC-1207 (Sev), killing Geonosian [/i]

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

MandalorianSpy9 wrote:

soo......  did those of you who favor evolution read my post on the bacterial flagellum?  jw what you guys thought of that???

the way paramecium cells (living creatures, they just have 1 cell) develop is very quick and simple: they just split in two. And they have those flagel-thingies as you can see:

http://www.nonlocal.com/hbar/paramecium.gif

Most cells do in order to move and fix themselves to other cells, that's how they exchange biological material, and also DNA.

And no, you dont just put together proteins to make life. A protein on its own is not life, it's just... a protein and when in natural environement the adequate recipe for living cells is applicated (water, proteins, etc, and energy - heat? lightning?) you might get some primitive form of bacteria. This happens why? because there isn't a spot on Earth where there isnt a physical trace of biological remains. Spores (mushroom), for example. They're everywhere, in all climatic conditions. That's why scientists have focused astrobiology so much lately: the only way to discover the mystery of life is by looking at how it started on other planets.

Of course there was no sign of life on any of the nearby solar planets here, but we'll discover new life forms outside of our system (which in my opinion will happen, one day) on a planet that's similar to our Earth. What is going to freak us out is how alien those beings will be, and totally not what we'd have expected. Why would there be other sentient beings who would look exactly like us? Do you think that's possible?

Man, if there would be OTHER humans out there, people just like us... we wouldn't feel so special anymore, huh? God created us as smart, resourceful, and prolific as any perfect species should be... Why would he give those wonderful assets to others? tongue

Astrobiology rocks.

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45 (edited by TheGunslinger Monday, May 22, 2006 1:15 pm)

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

RC-3222 wrote:
CeciliaCrimsondragonFett wrote:

Evolution is not theory, its a proven, true process that occurs every day.

Alright, not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious: how is evolution a proven theory?

If you think about it, everything tends to a state of disorder:  Just go to some land that no one takes care of and you'll see what I mean-- trees fallen down, grass and weeds grown up, and so on. If everything tends to a state of disorder, then how can people evolve to become better? Take sickle cell anemia, for example. It has been proven that people who have sickle blood cells have a higher survival rate when battling malaria, therefore supposedly supporting macroevolution. However, sickle cells can block blood flow, resulting in,

   1.  pain episodes
   2. strokes
   3. increased infections
   4. leg ulcers
   5. bone damage
   6. yellow eyes or jaundice
   7. early gallstones
   8. lung blockage
   9. kidney damage and loss of body water in urine
  10. blood blockage in the spleen or liver (sequestration)
  11. eye damage
  12. low red blood cell counts (anemia)
  13. delayed growth


The result is that, even though it "helps" people with malaria, it is more beneficial to a person if they don't have sickle cell anemia.

True that. I'm with you 100%. Sickle cell anemia is a Bad Thing.

That said, your argument is that it should be eradicated, right? That if we are evolving it should be going away? I may have misinterpreted you, and if that's the case I apologize immensely, but hear me out here: evolution doesn't work on people.

I'm an anomoly, I guess: I'm a devout Roman Catholic and simultaneously a devout evolutionist. I guess that makes me a Bad Person, but oh well. I can justify it in my mind, so that's good enough for me. I don;t need everyone else's approval.

That was just so you know where I'm coming from. Now for the actual stuff: evolution doesn't work on people. (Refresher course for people who may not know exactly what I'm talking about- please don't think I'm condescending anybody! I just want to make sure that those of us who haven't taken high school biology can follow along here.)
Evolution works on the principle of natural selection: the strongest members of a species survive, and the weak genes are culled by predators and other forms of death. Change comes about because beneficial mutations help the specimen to survive, keeping the changes in the genes to be passed on to the young. This way the changed genes become more prominent in the gene pool and eventually become a species trait to whatever is doing the evolving. It's just logical.

Now, think of people. We control our own environment and set up a society based on protecting everyone. There are no predators to cull out the weakens specimens, because we've isolated outselves in cities. The only things that really kill us off (accidents, diseases and old age) strike indiscriminantly to a person's survival traits. It's not eh survival of the fittest anymore, it's the survival of all. Evolution can;t take place under those conditions.

Example: sickle cell anemia. Say a strain develops that affects...antelopes. The antelopes with the disease are weaker, so they get picked off the easiest by lions without being able to reprodice as effectively as a healthy antelope. The weakness thins out and eventually dies off. With people, there are no lions. We are able to care for the sick, so they stay alive with the disease and keep on having kids. Those kids have kids, and the potential for the disease is carried throughout, even if it isn't actively carried. The gene stays alive as long as people are able to reproduce, so it isn't eliminated as it should be in the animal kingdom.

I probably twisted your point around there; if that's the case, I'm sorry. I'm just a little obsessed with this concept here. I'm writing a book on it now, actually, and it's by far the best thing I've ever written (not that it'll ever be finished, but I like to dream). Just the whole concept excites me. The only time evolution could recommence for people would be if the world plunged into anarchy and we rejoined our place in the animal kingdom.

Disclaimer: In no way do I think that should happen. In no way do I think we should kill off the weakest members of society. I just thought that was an interesting concept to share, and seeing how it related to the concept being discussed I got all excited and wrote this ultra-long piece of boredom that's making your eyes bleed right now. Sorry 'bout that! big_smile

GPI: Fondly regard crustacean

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Well to be honest I'm not sure if you twisted my point or not. tongue Anyways, why would evolution just stop? I mean, it's not like it can just "tell" whether or not we need better traits (bad terminology, I know) to help us survive. Asked out of curiosity! big_smile

"Whoever is a highly evolved, super-genius raise your hand."  *raises hand*   "Oh."     
-----[color=#FF0000]Rodney McKay[/color]

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

The problem is some of those disorders come from early on in human history. So even the recessive genes that create the disease/disorder that haven't popped out of a family in centuries may suddenly appear because two people with the gene mate, but totally didn't know they had the gene. And scientists are working to help get rid of these things. We have the technology to do it right now if the right minds get together. Problem is the research is getting banned.

And why DO people need to belive in something anyways? Won't you be just as happy if you didn't? Religion has only showed me one thing and thats suffering. Seriously, we'd get along a LOT better without it.

Half Dragon, half human, 100% Fett!

48 (edited by RC-3222 Monday, May 22, 2006 4:35 pm)

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Okay, I don't understand what you're saying. sad

"Whoever is a highly evolved, super-genius raise your hand."  *raises hand*   "Oh."     
-----[color=#FF0000]Rodney McKay[/color]

Re: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

RC-3222 wrote:

Well to be honest I'm not sure if you twisted my point or not. tongue Anyways, why would evolution just stop? I mean, it's not like it can just "tell" whether or not we need better traits (bad terminology, I know) to help us survive. Asked out of curiosity! big_smile

What I mean is, evolution isn't a force in itself. It's not some influence that's constantly morphing people intro stronger beings. It's a process, one more logical that actually scientific. The reason I'm saying people stop evolving is because the fittest are not the ones who survive. The addition of society had eliminated the process, because no longer is the gene pool determined by survival, it's become completely random.

If the weak die, the weak genes leave the gene pool. If the strong survive, the strong genes stay in the gene pool. That betters the species. In humanity, both the weak and the strong survive. Both weak and strong genes stay in the gene pool and pretty much counteract each other. No progress is made in the human genome. Can you see what I'm saying? (I'm going to make such a horrible science teacher >_<)

GPI: Fondly regard crustacean