Re: Karen Traviss...

Agreed. I enjoyed Hard Contact a lot, but it was Triple Zero that clinched it. The introduction of Mandos, especially Kal (AMAZING character), and the Nulls, was what made love the books more than any Star Wars series.

Now, I just sit back and eagerly await the next books.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Karen Traviss...

Travis is the greatest, I love reading her books, and I must have read each at least 5 times. The Nulls are my favorite. One thing I have to object to is Corr. He actually at one point suggested lining up Palps and the other politicians and shooting them. Since he used to be a regular, rank-and-file clone trooper, and not an independant ARC or RC, I seriously doubt he would say that.

But besides that, I think she is fantastic.

"None of this is really happening. There is a man. With a typewriter. This is all part of his crazy imagination."

Re: Karen Traviss...

I think she was trying to say that the normal rank and file troopers, were conditioned and had their genes munipulated to where they simply felt loyalty to whoever they were told to be loyal too, with out much thought. But once they took a step back and looked at the big picture (which is what being with the commandos did for Corr) he suddenly starts to feel like why the hell hes fighting.

So its not like the Clone Troopers are permanetly brainwashed or anything, they'er just prone to being docial to whoever happens to be holding the leash.

[i]"Sir, Finishing this Cake."[/i]

Re: Karen Traviss...

Yeah I understand what you are saying. Human beings are too unpredictable to be always 100% loyal.

"None of this is really happening. There is a man. With a typewriter. This is all part of his crazy imagination."

Re: Karen Traviss...

hses done woderfull things with the clones and manadlore but not with fett.i admire individuals who stand alone.

SF is what life is all about.

Re: Karen Traviss...

Mandal_ShadowWarrior wrote:

So its not like the Clone Troopers are permanetly brainwashed or anything, they'er just prone to being docial to whoever happens to be holding the leash.

I have to disagree.  If this was true, Order 66 wouldn't have been nearly as sucessful because too many of the clone specialists who's job it was to one day stand side by side with their Jedi, and the next day wipe them out would have been turned by their generals.  You see in Ep. III that Obi-Wan has a fairly close relationship with his top clone commander *was it Cody?  I forget...*, yet the clone coldly orders his men to fire on Obi-wan, and they blindly obey. 

I'm not sure what the canon explanation is on the early clone mental conditioning *or if there even is one*, but I've always been of the opinion that they were imprinted mentally with a bound devotion to their Emperor.  This my be a more simplistic way of explaining their actions, but it does the job.  If there's a better reason for all that they do, I've yet to hear it.

"You set a code to live by.  I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted...I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other men, and I require the same from them."

Re: Karen Traviss...

like any regular military orginisation they are conditioned to obey any order given.

SF is what life is all about.

Re: Karen Traviss...

i liked the new books about jacen solo.boba fett stole the show and seemd more like the old fett.

SF is what life is all about.

Re: Karen Traviss...

I dont agree with the majority opinion. I believe that Traviss has the ability to show the soft side of an extreemly rough rock. I believe that as Boba Fett grows older and after a LIFETIME of the rough bounty hunter life, he should have the right to have a small emotional side. In reality, those who usually seem to be the most unemotional, usually are the MOST emotional inside. Basic psychology.
Although I dont like the idea of Boba Fett's thoughts being fllled with such emotion, I'd like to think that in the "Legacy of the Force" novels, the excuse for this is that he's just getting old.......
Karen Traviss is a fantastic writer in my opinion, yet it IS tricky when your CREATING the future for millions of fan's favorite charecter............god.....that must be a lot of pressure...

TW

{MW} [color=#FF0000]"Death and Destruction to our Enemies!"[/color]
[color=blue]Listen to My Rap Songs!![/color] [url=http://www.myspace.com/dinonkeys]www.myspace.com/dinonkeys[/url]

110 (edited by Mandal_ShadowWarrior Monday, June 15, 2009 7:46 am)

Re: Karen Traviss...

Ralin Drakus wrote:
Mandal_ShadowWarrior wrote:

So its not like the Clone Troopers are permanetly brainwashed or anything, they'er just prone to being docial to whoever happens to be holding the leash.

I have to disagree.  If this was true, Order 66 wouldn't have been nearly as sucessful because too many of the clone specialists who's job it was to one day stand side by side with their Jedi, and the next day wipe them out would have been turned by their generals.  You see in Ep. III that Obi-Wan has a fairly close relationship with his top clone commander *was it Cody?  I forget...*, yet the clone coldly orders his men to fire on Obi-wan, and they blindly obey. 

I'm not sure what the canon explanation is on the early clone mental conditioning *or if there even is one*, but I've always been of the opinion that they were imprinted mentally with a bound devotion to their Emperor.  This my be a more simplistic way of explaining their actions, but it does the job.  If there's a better reason for all that they do, I've yet to hear it.

They did have these close relationships with their Jedi generals, but those relationships died once the Clones realized that the Jedi had all betrayed the Republic, when Mace Windu tryed to assassinate Palpatine. You have to understand that this was somthing that they had been fighting for for 3 years. The shock of the sudden realization that the Jedi had been  ploting to sieze control of the Republic for themelves, must of just completly destroyed any of the respect that the Jedi had earned over the course of the war.


So thats my counter-arguement to that.

[i]"Sir, Finishing this Cake."[/i]

Re: Karen Traviss...

A very valid point

However, I'm not sure I can totally buy into it myself.  Admittedly, STARWARS has taken MUCH more far out explanations for some actions, so I guess that works, but it doesn’t satisfy my picky nature.    tongue

EXAMPLE:  You work days, months, YEARS side by side with a person.  They’re cocky and a little distant, but they have skillz you’d KILL to have, they’ve used them at EVERY turn to save your shebs and the lives of your brothers, and has done UNBELIEVABLE things in the war to protect the Republic you were CREATED to protect.

Does anybody here think that, withought the blink of an eye, that you’d take the word of some dude you’ve only heard about before that said leader is now the bad guy and you should blow his head off – no questions asked.

We ALL saw Ep. III.  KT and maybe some other authors might add some RARE instances of hesitation or even desertion over the order, but all indications are that the vast majority of clones didn’t hesitate, didn’t question, nor did then even feel a doubt over the order.

Maybe it’s just me, but I feel a human in full possession of his senses couldn’t make such a choice that quickly.

"You set a code to live by.  I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted...I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other men, and I require the same from them."

Re: Karen Traviss...

mental conditioning and brainwashing
plus they were trained from the beginning that jedi were bad, but that they knew their stuff in battle

when the order was given out, the clones carried it out without question
makes perfect sense
it's like a mental override

"Those with the ability to lead, have the responsibility to do so."

Re: Karen Traviss...

Is that canon about basic grunt clones being trained that the Jedi were 'bad'?  We know from KT that a good number of the commandos who were trained by Mandalorian instructors probably had a negitive view of the Jedi, and we can assume the ARCs were even more bias because of Jango.  But I'd never heard that basic clones were taught this from the Kaminoans.  Source?

And I think you're touching on my argument - early brain tampering/brain conditioning.  My argument is that they weren't in full control of their senses as KT seems to argue.  Obaying an order like that withing question, even by clone commanders who had a personal relationship with their Jedi, is the point I'm using to document this

"You set a code to live by.  I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted...I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other men, and I require the same from them."

Re: Karen Traviss...

i don't read her Legacy of the Force books because i'm afraid the'll tant the pure awesomeness of Boba Fett with all her mushy gunk! but i do like her commando books..:P

,,Ca'nara ne gotal'u mirjahaal
   shi gotal'u haastal,,

Re: Karen Traviss...

Well, that's been one of the few points I've agreed with KT on.  I've always been sure that, somewhere under that green beskar'gam shell, he Does have a soft side.

However, I'm becomeing a bit unhappy with her writing as I go, so I won't agree with any direction she goes until I've actually read it for myself.

"You set a code to live by.  I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted...I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other men, and I require the same from them."

Re: Karen Traviss...

in order 66 she says that alot of the newer batch where cloned on corruscant.the clones where developing a a strong dislike for the republic and jedi who made them to be slave soldiers.most jedi saw them as cannon fodder.so order 66 would not be one to upset them.also the kaminos said something about them being alterd to be more obediant.

SF is what life is all about.

Re: Karen Traviss...

netracinya wrote:

i don't read her Legacy of the Force books because i'm afraid the'll tant the pure awesomeness of Boba Fett with all her mushy gunk! but i do like her commando books..:P

imo
anyone who claims to be a fan of boba fett would be impressed with what he becomes with his age
to put it plainly, you'd be proud of him

"Those with the ability to lead, have the responsibility to do so."

Re: Karen Traviss...

I agree with that Mccoy smile

Church... when I die I want you to have my orange juice!

Re: Karen Traviss...

Jaerog wrote:

I agree with that Mccoy smile

I second that, what he becomes with age is important. To be his fan, you need to be his fan at
every stage of his life.

A man's worst enemy can't wish on him what he can think up himself. Yiddish saying

Re: Karen Traviss...

BFFC therealmccoy wrote:
netracinya wrote:

i don't read her Legacy of the Force books because i'm afraid the'll tant the pure awesomeness of Boba Fett with all her mushy gunk! but i do like her commando books..:P

imo
anyone who claims to be a fan of boba fett would be impressed with what he becomes with his age
to put it plainly, you'd be proud of him

i am to a Fett fan,, i just don't like those books,, gosh

,,Ca'nara ne gotal'u mirjahaal
   shi gotal'u haastal,,

Re: Karen Traviss...

tbh i didnt read any chapters in 'bloodlines' that didnt have boba fett in them lol
i skimmed through the rest
granted, i read sacrifice, invincible and revelations front to back

"Those with the ability to lead, have the responsibility to do so."

Re: Karen Traviss...

Sharra Fett wrote:
Jaerog wrote:

I agree with that Mccoy smile

I second that, what he becomes with age is important. To be his fan, you need to be his fan at
every stage of his life.

Not sure I agree with the second half of that one.

To be a character's fan, yes, it is typical that you will closely follow all stages of that character's life and experiences.  However, you may not be a fan of a direction that character goes, or perhaps better said you don't Have to be happy with the way every author portrays a character.

For example:  I consider myself a Very big fan of the Mandalorians.  However, I don't Have to like the way KT writes about them just because I fell in love with them playing KotOR and reading the KotOR comics.  And in the same way, Boba fans don't Have to be a fan of his through every stage of his life; especially since each of these stages has been written about and portrayed differently by several different authors. 

Hell, I think that makes you More of a fan if you stand up for your guy and complain when he/she has been written about in a way you disagree with - if you Weren't a fan you wouldn't care

"You set a code to live by.  I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted...I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other men, and I require the same from them."

Re: Karen Traviss...

The point is, for better or for worse, that is now what Boba Fett and the Mandalorians are. We can't just say "well I don't follow that aspect of it", cuz I mean, that's what happened. We don't get to choose or decide how they turn out, we are simply along for the ride.

"Those with the ability to lead, have the responsibility to do so."

Re: Karen Traviss...

See i have full and beyond respect for creating a full Mandalorian culture. Oddly enough it speaks to me in a way that my RL "culture". I haven't got to the Legacy series yet. I read so much SW and they just keep coming out with more its so hard to catch up. ( i found my love of the books late into my fandom.... only about 2004/5 maybe..... )

Meat is murder...... tasty tasty murder.
"Suggestion: Electrocution works well. Evisceration and Decapitation are also effective, or um, so I've heard."

125 (edited by Cin Vhetin Friday, June 26, 2009 9:19 am)

Re: Karen Traviss...

Sharra Fett wrote:

I second that, what he becomes with age is important. To be his fan, you need to be his fan at every stage of his life.

BFFC therealmccoy wrote:

The point is, for better or for worse, that is now what Boba Fett and the Mandalorians are. We can't just say "well I don't follow that aspect of it", cuz I mean, that's what happened. We don't get to choose or decide how they turn out, we are simply along for the ride.

I don't think it has to be that static. To consider yourself fan of something, I don't think you have to blindly worship everything they do.

Think of what happens when a music band hires a different frontman or musician. Think of what happens when a movie series, or a videogame series, has a sequel written by a whole different team.

Sometimes new/different can be very good, or even seen as "better", think of Heath Ledger's Joker. But sometimes when things take a too drastically different direction on certain key aspects, you'll have people who just won't follow. Even if it's "the way things are" at some point, it doesn't mean the ones who were fans before all have to follow it.

And if you refuse to follow a particular leaning things took, it doesn't invalidate you as fan either. As what you once were fan of, still exists in the timeframe where it was what you loved and could identify yourself to. Even if it's not anymore the present time's reality, it doesn't mean it has no value.

When too many former fans give up that way, sometimes it can be enough for creators to reevaluate and get back to something more in the line of what worked better. And that can make the whole difference between what will or won't pass the test of time.

Just my opinion.

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