Mandalore Hunter wrote:
Humorbot5 wrote:
Valthonin wrote:

At one time, everyone thought the world was flat, did that make it true? No, they were wrong and they realized it when scientists came and showed them they were wrong. And what 'high ranking scribe' are you talking about? Because that doesnt seem too credible.

Just as a general interesting, and slightly off-topic; I do apologise, fact, it is a common misconception that the general populace ever thought the world was flat and certainly never "everyone" thought it was so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

But yes.


Scepticism leads me to believe that if a Christian were to find evidence that Jesus (person) was never born and never existed, the Christians would cover that evidence up in any way possible.

That however is scepticism and the point of faith is to ignore scepticism.
Unfortunately that is something those who do not believe cannot comprehend.
After all how could you possibly ignore reason and evidence in the face of something as trivial as a thought.

I had quite a magnum opus planned for the rest of this post but I think I shall save it. At least for now.

You could possibly be right, yet you could be wrong. It depends on how trustworthy and honest that Christian is.

One would hope that they would realise that regardless of whether Jesus exists or not, the ethics he taught are still worth following and that the truth will set one free.

Valthonin wrote:

At one time, everyone thought the world was flat, did that make it true? No, they were wrong and they realized it when scientists came and showed them they were wrong. And what 'high ranking scribe' are you talking about? Because that doesnt seem too credible.

Just as a general interesting, and slightly off-topic; I do apologise, fact, it is a common misconception that the general populace ever thought the world was flat and certainly never "everyone" thought it was so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

But yes.


Scepticism leads me to believe that if a Christian were to find evidence that Jesus (person) was never born and never existed, the Christians would cover that evidence up in any way possible.

That however is scepticism and the point of faith is to ignore scepticism.
Unfortunately that is something those who do not believe cannot comprehend.
After all how could you possibly ignore reason and evidence in the face of something as trivial as a thought.

I had quite a magnum opus planned for the rest of this post but I think I shall save it. At least for now.

tachyonblade wrote:
Werda Verd wrote:

Ok, the quotes are getting long. So I'll start straight.

No, I was saying the difference between someone who believes what they want versus what is taught is simple--do you KNOW what you believe is true. The "book" that Christians live by has its significance in the fact that its writing was guided by God's hand. Our "reading a book" has nothing to do with salvation--it was his writing it. Where do you base your faith? It has no foundation, no confirmation.

This concept of "truth" still eludes me. Who are you, or any other christian or anyone else for that matter, to tell me what truth is?

There is no truth. There is only belief.  People, christians, used to burn people alive because they did not agree with the church. What kind of truth is that.  AND, the same thing happens today. Why can't people get it through their heads that they don't know everything. I am so sick and tired of the self-righteous people telling me what reality is about. If you really have it all figured out then the rest of us are all f---cked. If you are happy with that idea then good for you. I believe that if God is there he is way more powerful and omnipotent than most christians think.   The church, the Bible, the Judeo-christian-islamic tradition are all human constructions. God decides everything despite some small pathetic bible study or sermon.

I am not going to contribute to this thread anymore because it makes me believe less in God not more. The more I talk with christians the less I want to be one.

I think truth is subjective and there is no one single exact way to experience it. And I think it is very unchristian to try to force one's beliefs on others and I think most christians should be more flexible about the nature of God and his place in the universe. This world is such a hard place to live in and people can be so cruel, why would you want to tell someone they are going to hell because they do not believe the same way you do?

What we need is more compassion and understanding and tolerance and more understanding...not more myopic, closed-minded dogmatic assertion of religious beliefs.

Basically, I hate anyone who thinks they have it all figured out. The most stupid people I know are those who think they are the smartest. Absolutism will be the end of us all.

Ah yes.
I believe it was Socrates who said it was the wise man who admits he knows nothing.
I have taken to observing for the moment, so please excuse me, I just wanted to add that little reference to quotation there.

4

(26 replies, posted in Fans)

because someone, somewhere wants to watch a fight that lasts three movies (as opposed to just three episodes)

I've only read the first two. Are the third and fourth as good?

6

(360 replies, posted in Fans)

Fett_II wrote:

nah, i think the idea of predestination (in the sense of you are either going to heaven or hell) is moronic.

I tend to agree.

tachyonblade wrote:

My earlier post brings to mind another reason I can't consider myself a christian...."only the Sith deal in absolutes." I have a hard time seeing the world in black-and-white terms and that's what a question like, "do you believe in evolution or creation" forces people to do, not on this list but I mean in a more general way. These kinds of debates are starting to break apart society and the world. No matter how you put it, if you consider yourself a born-again christian, everyone that is not is going to hell, and that is not something anyone wants to hear.

What I am saying is that modern christianity can be off-putting if the delivery is not handled in a delicate way.

I hope God is there but I can't be positive so I am not going to commit to something without being convinced.

Indeed, indeed, indeed.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Hard-line atheists think it's one or the other.
Hard-line Christians/Religious believers think it's one or the other.
And I, like you, don't agree with it.

Others clearly do and I tend to think they need that. I don't think they can have it up for discussion, everything must be black and white if not for any other reason than they need the security that comes with that approach.

CeciliaCrimsondragonFett wrote:

Sometimes I feel unsure about fate and free will. A lot of the time, I feel we all make our choices, and nothing is predetirmined. But, then I see the future (no this is not some BS I really do see the future in my dreams....nothing special though. Just tests, or eating out. There are more signifigant [game realated] dreams though) and then I wonder if there really is free will.

I don't doubt that, I have the same.
I think it is important to act as if we have free will whether we do or not. Not to think "ah well, there's nothing I can do to fight it so I'll act as I've always acted, it's gone fine so far" or "I know I'm gonna end up doing this, so I better do it" if it's something you have realised is immoral.
I think people should always fight immorality whether they do indeed end up doing it in the end due to pressures beyond their control or not.
I tend to reckon whether we truly have free will or not isn't something we should consider, we should assume we do and act accordingly.
I personally think if you believe everything you do to be determined you end up more immoral than if you consider at least some choices to be free, probably because you're more likely to be lazy about changing yourself or not if you feel you are determined to act a certain way.
But yes, I have very recently studied Free will and determinism so that remains fresh in my mind.

Seco Fett wrote:

Hmmm you see the future...please dream that my parents will take me to a Japanese grill on Sunday = ) Pleeeze?

But as for free will,  agree with you, and you too Humorbot. I think like you CCDF, in the part about free will. We make our own choices. But I think that God knows what choices we will make. And as for you HB5, good job on expressing how God is not bound by time. Saves me some for not having to write all that. lol

Thank you

regimas wrote:

look, this topic has no point, you can throw facts at each other all day long but nobody is going to change their beliefs because of what was said on a star wars forum, no one.

i say drop it, close it, and agree to disagree

this is going no where

Certainly you have misunderstood the reason I am speaking here sir, but I cannot necessarily speak for anyone else.
I post on this particular thread for discussion (as I have said), to hear other people's views, thoughts and ideas and consider them.
I have several passions and one of them just so happens to be philosophy, so that explains that/
I have no intention of changing anyone's views, I realise fully people need the opinions they express here. To "poo-poo" them would be downright satanic of me or anyone else in my opinion, but to hear them is to help them understand their views.
Honestly I find there is no better way to understand one's own thoughts and feelings on their own beliefs than to tell them to someone else.
And although I haven't specifically said "Tell me what you believe", by saying what I have said I reckon I have gotten some of the people here to express their views and ideas here that they may not have expressed to anyone recently or at all.
Alternatively perhaps the people here tell their views to all who are willing to listen. Those people I believe enjoy telling anyone their views. I suppose it's hard to understand but there are many people who are just satisfied to know that they have expressed their views.
And similarly I believe I am much more providing someone who will listen, respond and discuss than someone who argues with them because he disagrees.
Obviously when I am putting forward views I favour I have been less to point out the pit falls in the argument, but certainly some views I favour that I have put forward I have poked holes in.

But yes. (Very long post, I apologise) I had already agreed to disagree about beliefs before I posted in this thread, I had not however necessarily agreed to disagree on the idea that this topic has no point. I believe it does and I believe I have put forward the reasons why it has a point clearly and informatively.

That said, at this point I will agree to disagree with you should you still feel this thread has no point.
Thank you for reading any/all/none (delete as applicable) of this.

Seco Fett wrote:

I think we're BOTH messed up! LOL! I meant that I'm glad that you DO know your Bible! I think we're probably on the same page, but yeah...:)

Yes indeed. One of the main problems with internet chatting unfortunately.


tachyonblade wrote:

These arguments tend to become circular after a while so I have stayed away from posting but I have been following along.

I read the Bible a great deal, everyday. I am not a christian because I fall waaaay too short of the grace of God and I don't want to be a hypocrite.

What I did want to throw in, however, is the very, very old idea that if God created all and everything, if God knows all and everything, if God is everywhere and everything...you get the point, any discussion about God, BY HUMANS, is going to lack an essential frame a reference. If one admits that there is anything at all that is beyond God's control then, by default, it's not God. You can't have it both ways. It's like the myth of free will... if God knows everything that has been, is and will be he also knows all of the decisions of each and every person zillions of years before they are even born. In many ways I think Muslims have this part of the story right. I think the Muslim understanding of God is much more reverent. All and everything, love-hate, good-evil, play-doh, hamsters, etc. is created by an omnipotent God who decides all and everything.

Long-story-short...when we talk about God and evolution it is necessary to talk in absolutes. These are either/or propositions. As humans I think we lack the perspective to understand the world if we see it in absolute terms. This especially applies to the old testament. God flat out kills or causes to be killed thousands of people just because they didn't play according to his rules.  (Read the old testament and see how many times he kills off a few thousand people at-a-time as the jews make their way to the promised land.)

I think a more subtle understanding of theology is necessary if we are going to answer the big questions in life.

If you don't mind me saying so, I find that idea that you are not a Christian because you don't want to be a hypocrite really quite fascinating. In a good way.

Yes. I understand all of what you say and there is this idea that God knows all and therefore we cannot have free will, our choices, our actions, everything is predetermined and understood by God. God is not temporal, that is, he is not "in" space and time, therefore he cannot "know something before it happened" because for God there is no "before" or "after" as there is no time. Following on from that, we are all predestined to go to Heaven or predestined to go to Hell.

Now, in my mind, whether you believe and accept that idea as truth, one must act as if one does have free will, as if one can change the future and as one can get oneself to heaven. As while God may know which of us goes, we don't, so from our point of view in temporal existence we still have a choice.

And yes, in relation to your second point on talking about God and I realise this is a slight tangent to what you were saying. Some people have said it is pointless and foolhardy to speak of religion or God because neither can be verified and we cannot possible hope to understand either should they exist. I don't agree with that view as I enjoy talking about it, I enjoy hearing of people's views, thoughts and feelings on God and to an extent that gives my own faith strength.

Now what my faith is....that's another story.

Baron Somebody wrote:

I was being hunted down by three IG-88s at the same time, it was scary...all I could do is run

I would imagine that means you feel constrained by something you don't feel you can escape from. Maybe you're pressured by a job you can't leave or stressed due to school or family.

Alternatively I reckon it could mean that you feel someone is out to get you.

Fett_II wrote:
Humorbot5 wrote:

He didn't, He created a world with good in it which by default had to include a deficiency of good in it. A deficiency in good is bad.

Sorry, I find that to be complete bullshit. God intended to make the world happy, but because of people like Lucifer, evil was allowed to exist in order to balance out things. Or, if you ask me, I prefer the Greek explanation, the tale of Pandora's Box.

Pandora's box, as in evil is released but not without hope?

I'm sorry I didn't make it clear, but I was trying to put forward an opinion or reasoned argument that some would put forward. Although, I don't particularly see what the distinction between "God created good so there must be bad" and "Evil was allowed to exist in order to balance things"
Unless I am mistaken, that's what I meant.


Seco Fett wrote:

Good. Bad. OK, if you know your Bible(which I am very happy to talk to someone who knows what they're talking about), then you know that there was no good or bad. It was a perfect world before sin. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they realized that they were naked. That was when bad came into the world. The tree was called The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There was no good, or bad. There was no such thing as a conscience.

I do know my Bible.
You misunderstand me. The opinions I was putting forward were if "Genesis" and the "Adam and Eve version of events" are not accepted. i.e. Where evil came from if it didn't come from eating the apple in the garden of eden.
What you are saying is true according to Genesis, but I we are talking cross-purposes unfortunately.

Seco Fett wrote:

Well, first off, nothing in the Bible was meant to be ignored!

Indeed. Which is why the symbolic point of view has a problem as it is hard to  make everything into a symbol. That said however If someone cannot accept a book no matter what, is it not better to take what they can from the book rather than ignore it completely. Obviously you disagree with the whole idea of not accepting a book no matter what, so I suppose my suggestion is void in advance.

Seco Fett wrote:

But if Genesis is all symbolism, then why would God create a world in which Death, Pain, Disease, and Suffering are present. That would be a terrible god who would make us go through all that evil from nothing!

He didn't, He created a world with good in it which by default had to include a deficiency of good in it. A deficiency in good is bad.

Allow me to provide an example. How would you know you were happy if you had never been "not" happy?
Surely you would just consider happy to be "normal" if you hadn't experienced an alternative that was not as good as happy.

A metaphorical reference to this is "How would you know you were alive if no one died?" If there is no other option to consider it is just considered "normal"

Likewise God cannot create a good world without bad. How would we be able to know when what is good is good if there is never any bad to compare it to.


The classic comeback to what you have said is why would God have created man if he knew he would sin? Why did he not create man so he did not sin, then there would not be death, pain, disease and suffering? Better yet why did he create the forbidden tree? These are similar questions. Surely if God created a world in which there was temptation to take fruit from the tree then God created a little bit of bad in there. It depends whether you consider temptation bad.

At the end of the day, I don't think any of these questions matter. You can take one of two responses to this

The first I call the Ivan way (after Ivan Karamazov from The Brothers Karamazov)
There is evil in the world. This evil can be against people who by human standards are innocent and undeserving. Therefore I reject God, God is unfair, unjust and does not deserve worship.

The second is the Job way (after Job in the Biblical Book: Job)
There is evil in the world. This evil can be against people who by human standards are innocent and undeserving. However I am not God, I do not know what God knows, all I have is faith that God is good. Therefore I trust God is doing right and worship him as a result of this trust.

So some big things to consider there. Once again I'm not trying to cross any lines here, I respect your beliefs. I just enjoy philosophical and therefore theological discussion.

11

(112 replies, posted in Fans)

Karson Fett wrote:

Ac/dc

Hey Karson what bands do you like?

12

(8 replies, posted in Fans)

My cousin is reading those ink*blank* books.
Meanwhile I am reading Immanuel Kant's Critique or Pure Reason.
To "kill" "boredom" I listen to music, watch DVDs, read books, play on the 360, research stuff etc. etc.
Yup.

Where's the unavoidable post in which someone declares that to avoid boredom they post here....?

13

(10 replies, posted in Creative)

The best part was the fact that you called one section "The Real McCoy"

I don't believe I remember that episode. I'll have to dig it out and watch it. Pretty good find there Sadriel.

15

(56 replies, posted in Serious Geeking)

Yes, the turn-based system annoyed me too. Also the speed at which the character ran annoyed me. I'm just impatient though.

Seco Fett wrote:

Yes they can, but they are also easily interpreted as history. I haven't heard a theory that works evolution into Genesis yet. The Gap Theory and the Day-Age Theory have been proved unreasonable, and if they're just symbols, then what do they mean?

As in what does the book of Genesis mean if its a symbol?
I suppose some examples are as followed:
-Well, presumably that God created everything. (Creation)
-Humans were put on this Earth to be caretakers of it. (Creation)
-Humans are prone to temptation and sin. (Adam and Eve)
-If God is displeased with you, don't take it out on those he is pleased with./If things aren't going your way, don't take it out on those for which it is. (Cain and Abel)
-With God's help anyone can overcome anything (Noah's ark)
-God's promises are fulfilled (Noah's ark/Abraham)
-Rape is wrong (Sodom and Gomorrah)
-Tests will come, they will be harsh, don't lose faith. (Abraham and Isaac)

But then again, interpreting a book as a symbol can lead to ignoring parts and one always has to worry as to whether they are ignoring important parts or ignoring parts that were meant to be ignored. That's probably the biggest problem with taking it as symbolism.

17

(56 replies, posted in Serious Geeking)

I see where McCoy is coming from and I accept all of his points. I thought it was a great game, Star Wars or not, the fact that it was, I guess is just a bonus. Granted, I probably wouldn't have got it had it not been Star Wars.

On a similar note Tales of the Jedi (The series of comics) had practically nothing to do with anything from the films (I say practically, because Luke met up with Exar Kun's ghost before the comics were written.) but regardless, it's probably my favourite series of comics. I dunno why, it was just a good set of stories. Although I suppose Ulic's life was more similar to that myth idea you were talking about than anything in the KOTOR games.

18

(182 replies, posted in General)

Ralin Drakus wrote:
kevhaye wrote:

I was talking to a friend the other day and realized that in all the films it seems that you can easily guess which characters are my favorite by noticing: How they die, how much dialog they have, or how much screen time they have.  Both Fetts died in a crappy way, so did Maul, Kit Fisto is one of the coolest looking Jedi and he also dies like a chump. not to mention that none of these characters had much dialog.

This is as sad at it is true.....  I'm with ya there ner vod

Kit Fisto died like less of a chump than Saesee Tiin or Agen Kolar. And they're way crappier chracters than any of the people you mentioned.

19

(360 replies, posted in Fans)

Seco Fett wrote:

I think God will let "compromisers" into heaven, but I think he'll be disapointed. After all if a Christian can't believe Genesis, then can he believe the rest of the Bible?

I'm certain a Christian can quite easily believe that, say, the first four books of the Bible can be interpreted as symbols, while still believing the rest of the Bible.

20

(42 replies, posted in Role Playing)

Mandal_ShadowWarrior wrote:

Though Vaders power overall is considerable, and shouldnt be taken lightly. Not by a long shot.

Bane wasn't crippled though, he was able to reach his peak capacity.
Bane's peak capacity may well have been no where near Vader's had Vader not become crippled on Mustafar. As a result of that incident I'm sure his peak power was less than that of Bane's.

21

(56 replies, posted in Serious Geeking)

Si Titran wrote:
Humorbot5 wrote:

Why don't they just call it "World of Star Warcraft". Everyone knows that's what they're trying to do.

Furthermore everyone would rather play KOTOR 3 on their own than pay $15 a month to play as some meaningless character being spammed by some 12 year old who likes pop tarts.

I second the latter statement. I hate those kids, they're on live now!

I know. The best way to beat the little turds is to spam them back in a far more intelligent way then win the game you are playing in. I'm good at both of those things so I guess I win.


Back to the KOTOR thing. Well if they bring back and ruin any of the characters from KOTOR I or II I will be very displeased. I don't care if they re-use crappy characters like Traya, but if they ruin Canderous and/or Atton....Well. I'll write such an angry letter.... In red ink!
That'll learn them.

Sharra Fett wrote:
Humorbot5 wrote:

Plot the downfall of the human race!

and play the 360 a bit, y'know.

Wow!! Scared of You!!

I was only kidding, gettit? Ho Ho!

In other news, I also listen to music, eat, sleep, school and shower.

23

(112 replies, posted in Fans)

Muse and Led Zeppelin are good.

Hey Jaerog, what do you prefer early Zeppelin (I-IV) or later Zeppelin (Houses of the Holy and onwards)?

I've got I-IV and Houses of teh Holy, I was wondering whether I should continue and get Physical Graffiti or whether it's radically different.

24

(360 replies, posted in Fans)

Seco Fett wrote:

It's so hard for me not to just give up on you peoples and just say "I tried. Tell me what Heck's like." But I'm not going to leave you to you're fate! I'm here to help, not force my Religion on you. Remeber, the Lord is the prince of peace!

Are you talking to all believers in Evolution including those who believe in God as well or just those who believe in Evolution and not God?

As far as I see it as long as I trust that God could have created the World exactly as he did, word for word, in the Bible, surely it matters not that I think he chose an alternative way of creating the World? At the end of the day, I don't believe for a second it really matters which you accept as to whether God accepts you into Heaven or not.

We all assume he'll let us in, despite eating pork after all.

But if I am interfering with your views then by all means carry on, I apologise.

If that's sarcasm, it's meant to be written like that...Like some sort of kid's story. Just the sort of humour I was feeling at the time of writing.

If that's not sarcasm then thank you, I'm glad you appreciated the style. I tend to have quite a wide range of styles. That is my dopey "kids story" type one. Obviously with all the references it makes it's not really for kids, but you get the idea.

I will write more, it doesn't end there.