Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Werda Verd wrote:

Not at all. Everyone has sinned their whole lives, more or less. I doubt many people have gone a day without sinning in some way. Difference is, whether you've accepted that Christ died to forgive you for your sins. Thats the only difference between me and you, here.

The "Christians" that he would be put off by are those that aren't actually Christians, or aren't living like Christians. And there are a LOT of those--genuine Christians who really don't live like it AT ALL.

I'm not saying I'm not sinful--Christians are too. We just are taught in clearer terms what the Bible defines as wrong.

For example, modern Christians are known for being anti-gay. Thats grown too far, to the point of many "Christians" hating gays themselves. Its true, its Biblically wrong. But that doesn't mean we can't love them. Many Christians have become way too condemning, and not loving enough. Christ WOULD be disgusted with many Christians. Even genuine Christians, I admit it. But we know where our hope of salvation comes from.

Salvation...why do we need that in the first place?

It seems really cruel from my perspective that God even set up a situation where it was possible for people to burn and writhe in agony for eternity. (But this goes back to free will and a whole can of worms.)

"in clearer terms"... well, people can be crystal clear abut their beliefs and still be wrong.

Bringing the topic back to the original post. Many people are very clear that evolution is how we got here today. They are very clear that its mechanism is natural selection and that natural selection functions through very clear processes. They are very clear but I am willing to say that that does not make them right. I extend the same measure toward christians. Just because your religion in "clear" does not make it, or the belief system behind it, right.

I think I said this earlier but the thing that scares me the most about christians is how certain they are, how confident, how arrogant  they are that they have it all figured out. Having it all figured out is totally impossible scientifically. If scientists can accept that they don't know everything why can't christians?

"D'oh!"
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Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I believe in God. LOL! That's the real question here! Maybe someday I might create a topic where we can discuss our views or where it is "legal"(LOL) to force our views on others. Or maybe I'll make an "evangelistic" topic to share our beliefs with others. I really don't want to have to start anything like those though. Any brave souls willing to do that? *looks up at you wearily*

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Seco Fett wrote:

I believe in God. LOL! That's the real question here! Maybe someday I might create a topic where we can discuss our views or where it is "legal"(LOL) to force our views on others. Or maybe I'll make an "evangelistic" topic to share our beliefs with others. I really don't want to have to start anything like those though. Any brave souls willing to do that? *looks up at you wearily*

It's kind of difficult to figure out how much of this is sarcastic and how much of it is sincere.

Surely, you're not proposing a forum where people preach the gospel here at the BFFC!?

Are there not more proper venues for such discussions? 

And I think if you did you may end up having conversations with yourselves anyway so what would be the point?

Not trying to step on any toes here just wondering.

"D'oh!"
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Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I find it hard to separate the sarcasm, jokes, and sincerity myself...I'm very distracted at the moment. Sorry. I do believe in God though! LOL

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

tachyonblade wrote:

Salvation...why do we need that in the first place?

It seems really cruel from my perspective that God even set up a situation where it was possible for people to burn and writhe in agony for eternity. (But this goes back to free will and a whole can of worms.)

.......

I think I said this earlier but the thing that scares me the most about christians is how certain they are, how confident, how arrogant  they are that they have it all figured out. Having it all figured out is totally impossible scientifically. If scientists can accept that they don't know everything why can't christians?

Not at all. If you understand that God is perfect, then you understand that God can't be in the presence of sin, nor can he let sin go unpunished. But because he's also a Loving God, he provided a way out, a way to cleanse the sin from anyone willing to accept it. But so sacrifice less than a perfect one would be acceptable--it would fall short. Thats why Christ died.

Its not cruel, its just God is holy and Perfect. He CAN'T live with sin--and it can't go unpunished. But he gives a way out. He could have said, when Adam and Eve messed up, "Ok, they screwed up, I tried to give them free will, and they abused it. Lets wipe the slate clean and start over."

It all comes down to understanding the core of who God is.

......

Second part--admittedly, many Christians are "holierthan though" and in general arrogant, but none should claim to know it all. We don't. I have NO idea why God has done most of what he has done, or how. But I know enough. Thats it. Christians seem like they know it all because yes, we're confident in salvation. Because faith in Christ simply makes sense once you accept it, or truly realize you need it.

One of my teachers has a friend, she's about 27ish, who came in and shared her story. I'll shorten it, but give the gist.

Junior or senior year of prom--guy she went with raped her. She didn't tell anyone. In college, a guy taking her home from a party also raped her. Again, she didn't tell anyone. Starting in high school, and leading into college and after she left/had to leave (not sure) she was HEAVILY addicted to drugs and alcohol. Her alcohol tolerance is incredibly high. She didn't come out and say it, but indicated she was raped at least one other time. She ended up in the hospital a number of times, and was in jail on suicide watch less than a year ago. She basically said she did things she wasn't proud of for her addictions.

She had a number of Christian friends throughout much of that, who stuck with her even when they found her in horrifying situations. She tried rehab a number of times. And she told us that she eventually realized that she needed God. She knew NOTHING about scripture or theology, or anything, just that without him, she'd destroy herself.

She's not completely clean, but she's improved a lot. It was horrifying to hear what she want through, and see how drastically her life has changed. Thats part of why we are so certain. Miracles like that.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

331 (edited by tachyonblade Monday, February 9, 2009 6:36 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Werda Verd wrote:
tachyonblade wrote:

Salvation...why do we need that in the first place?

It seems really cruel from my perspective that God even set up a situation where it was possible for people to burn and writhe in agony for eternity. (But this goes back to free will and a whole can of worms.)

.......

I think I said this earlier but the thing that scares me the most about christians is how certain they are, how confident, how arrogant  they are that they have it all figured out. Having it all figured out is totally impossible scientifically. If scientists can accept that they don't know everything why can't christians?

Not at all. If you understand that God is perfect, then you understand that God can't be in the presence of sin, nor can he let sin go unpunished. But because he's also a Loving God, he provided a way out, a way to cleanse the sin from anyone willing to accept it. But so sacrifice less than a perfect one would be acceptable--it would fall short. Thats why Christ died.

Its not cruel, its just God is holy and Perfect. He CAN'T live with sin--and it can't go unpunished. But he gives a way out. He could have said, when Adam and Eve messed up, "Ok, they screwed up, I tried to give them free will, and they abused it. Lets wipe the slate clean and start over."

It all comes down to understanding the core of who God is.

......

Second part--admittedly, many Christians are "holierthan though" and in general arrogant, but none should claim to know it all. We don't. I have NO idea why God has done most of what he has done, or how. But I know enough. Thats it. Christians seem like they know it all because yes, we're confident in salvation. Because faith in Christ simply makes sense once you accept it, or truly realize you need it.

One of my teachers has a friend, she's about 27ish, who came in and shared her story. I'll shorten it, but give the gist.

Junior or senior year of prom--guy she went with raped her. She didn't tell anyone. In college, a guy taking her home from a party also raped her. Again, she didn't tell anyone. Starting in high school, and leading into college and after she left/had to leave (not sure) she was HEAVILY addicted to drugs and alcohol. Her alcohol tolerance is incredibly high. She didn't come out and say it, but indicated she was raped at least one other time. She ended up in the hospital a number of times, and was in jail on suicide watch less than a year ago. She basically said she did things she wasn't proud of for her addictions.

She had a number of Christian friends throughout much of that, who stuck with her even when they found her in horrifying situations. She tried rehab a number of times. And she told us that she eventually realized that she needed God. She knew NOTHING about scripture or theology, or anything, just that without him, she'd destroy herself.

She's not completely clean, but she's improved a lot. It was horrifying to hear what she want through, and see how drastically her life has changed. Thats part of why we are so certain. Miracles like that.

Although I appreciate the message of your story I have a few of my own that have nothing to do with God. People can turn their lives around without God and do so all the time and you can't tell them, or me, otherwise.

As for it being a "miracle," well I am a very long way away from believing that was a miracle or that they happen at all these days. I believe that more often than not, it's as Ben Kenobi says, " many of the truths we cling to depend largely upon our point of view." Five different people can see the exact same thing and have five different explanations for what they saw.  Nine times out of ten christians are unwilling to see any other possibility than the hand of God at work.

The funny thing is that my brother is an atheist and basically hates christians, when he and I talk I am usually trying to open his mind up to the possibility of the existence of God....talk about Devil's advocate smile

"D'oh!"
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Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I just dislike orginized religion in general. Its so corrupted. Priests raping little boys, donated money going in the pockets of the preacher rather then the needy.... One thing I just really hate is something I've noticed. Christians will tell you that "Jesus loves you/everyone". But they don't reflect that statement at all. Really, what they're saying is "Jesus loves you...but only if your not poor, gay, a minority, belong to another religion, or think about anything sex related". If Jesus was really the guy they say he was, then he would love everyone, no matter what. Not just pick and choose. =/

Half Dragon, half human, 100% Fett!

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Yeah, but she herself said she was basically destroying herself, and could see no way out.

And Christians are frequently a horrible standard, even the best of us. Judging Christ by Christians is NOT right. And yes, he loves everyone, but he hates sin. Sadly, many Christians kinda combine them.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Werda Verd wrote:

Yeah, but she herself said she was basically destroying herself, and could see no way out.

And Christians are frequently a horrible standard, even the best of us. Judging Christ by Christians is NOT right. And yes, he loves everyone, but he hates sin. Sadly, many Christians kinda combine them.

As I mentioned above, there are many success stories that do not involve Christ or christianity. In American culture we are programmed to think in Judeo-Christian terms. In another culture, like where I live, people could just as easily claim that Buddha, in some sects, showed them the way. In Pure Land Buddhism Buddha is a lot like Christ. He helps people who are worthy. Yet in India they might claim that Vishnu was there to aid them in their turn around. And as crazy it it sounds, a lot of Scientologists are convinced that they live a better life because they joined the religion.

I mean, there is just no way to be sure. You Have to decide on your own.  And someone telling you that you are going to burn in hell for not believing the way you do  just sounds really closed-minded and self-centered.
And the points raised by CeciliaCrimsondragonFett contribute to my insistence that there is no one way to understand the nature of reality. You can't have it both ways. You can't have a God that is good and omnipotent and at the same time one who allows the terrible things that happen to do so even within the church itself. There is just no logical argument to be made for that.

"D'oh!"
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Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

God commands us to love the sinner, but hate the sin. God does love everyone. Sadly many "Christians" are out there for themselves. I hate to admit it, but my current pastor is just here for the good pay and the respect that he wrongly demands from everyone.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

As for the whole sin thing, everyone sins. It's human nature. You shouldn't go to Hell for being human.

And the thing that bothers me the most is the lack of evidence of God. There is absoutely no evidence, but billions of people believe in a God.

"None of this is really happening. There is a man. With a typewriter. This is all part of his crazy imagination."

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I don't "just believe". I've went out and found proof.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

And that's your opinion. Nobody can change it except you. We can't tell you that "God isn't real, get over it kid", but at the same time, you can't tell us "Come worship Jesus or be damned!" because it may be our belief that A) there is no God B) there is no Hell C) Jesus was a loony

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Yeah, so now we're all chummy friends! That's what's so great about BFFC! And we don't even know why!

But just think, what if you're wrong? What a mistake that would be. If I'm wrong though, what have I got to lose? A purposeless existence? So what.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Well, what proof have you found? And I mean serious facts, not some hunch or belief.

"None of this is really happening. There is a man. With a typewriter. This is all part of his crazy imagination."

341 (edited by Seco Fett Sunday, February 22, 2009 9:33 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I've listed a few, but you asked for more, so.

Did you know the Bible talks about "springs in the sea"? It does. Scientists didn't even know that there were springs in the sea until about 60 years ago, and yet God spoke about the in the book of Job.

Then there's the proof for the world-wide flood, which I could make an entire museum for. As a taste, how do you get fossilized trees standing strait up through multiple rock layers? That happened at Spirit Lake in Washington after Mt. Saint Helen's blew her top, and it didn't take millions of years for that to happen, so why couldn't a flood have caused the ones in the rock layers?

Don't even get me started on carbon dating.

And don't forget about salt build up in the ocean! Did you know that the oceans get saltier every year? It's a fact that a certain amount of salt is formed in the oceans each year. If the world was so old, there would be a lot more salt in the ocean than there is today. If you started with fresh water and went to the salt we have today, then the world should be about six thousand years old or so.

If these facts are right, and the Bible is correct about scientific matters, then what's to say it's wrong about spiritual matters as well?

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

How do you know everything in the Bible is correct? It could have been written by a crazy hobo guy back a long time ago, and then somebody picks it up and reads it, and goes "Hey I'll believe everything this random book says" I mean, seriously. By the way, the entire Protestant religion was created just so King Henry the 8th could get a divorce from his wife, and now Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland kill each other every day. Then there was the Crusades, the Holocaust, and now Osama bin Laden is twisting Islam into making a jihad against the U.S. All religion does is cause suffering, and waste time.

"None of this is really happening. There is a man. With a typewriter. This is all part of his crazy imagination."

343 (edited by Fett_II Monday, February 23, 2009 1:45 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Seco Fett wrote:

I've listed a few, but you asked for more, so.

Did you know the Bible talks about "springs in the sea"? It does. Scientists didn't even know that there were springs in the sea until about 60 years ago, and yet God spoke about the in the book of Job.

not sure where you heard that.

Then there's the proof for the world-wide flood, which I could make an entire museum for. As a taste, how do you get fossilized trees standing strait up through multiple rock layers? That happened at Spirit Lake in Washington after Mt. Saint Helen's blew her top, and it didn't take millions of years for that to happen, so why couldn't a flood have caused the ones in the rock layers?

A worldwide flood might not take millions of years, but it sure as Hell won't take just a few days. You would have to completely melt the polar ice caps (both north and south, which coincidentally should take hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years), and even then the entire world won't be flooded. But if there was a worldwide flood, how are we here? How is there even a record of a worldwide flood?

Don't even get me started on carbon dating.

Carbon dating is one of the most accurate sources of age measuring out there.

And don't forget about salt build up in the ocean! Did you know that the oceans get saltier every year? It's a fact that a certain amount of salt is formed in the oceans each year. If the world was so old, there would be a lot more salt in the ocean than there is today. If you started with fresh water and went to the salt we have today, then the world should be about six thousand years old or so.

Evidence from rocks that eroded in the salt water prove the Earth to be about 4 billion years old, or was it 6? Either way, this is still a relatively young planet, and if the Earth is only about 6,000 years old, how come there is evidence showing of dinosaurs roaming the Earth 65,000,000 years before the first humans came to be? Considering that human beings have only been around for about 1.2 million years (scientific evidence, can't beat it) I believe that completely eradicates your theory on the age of the world.

If these facts are right, and the Bible is correct about scientific matters, then what's to say it's wrong about spiritual matters as well?

There is no proof, only speculation.

Commander Appo wrote:

How do you know everything in the Bible is correct? It could have been written by a crazy hobo guy back a long time ago, and then somebody picks it up and reads it, and goes "Hey I'll believe everything this random book says" I mean, seriously. By the way, the entire Protestant religion was created just so King Henry the 8th could get a divorce from his wife, and now Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland kill each other every day. Then there was the Crusades, the Holocaust, and now Osama bin Laden is twisting Islam into making a jihad against the U.S. All religion does is cause suffering, and waste time.

A bunch of hobos, not just one. Correct on the Henry VIII reason for Protestantism. The Crusades was a feeble attempt for the Papacy and the Church of Christianity to reclaim the Holy Land, where it was believed that Jesus was born and died, from the Muslims. Yeah, all religion really does is cause conflict. You know that Pope Innocence II or III, I don't remember which one, recruited soldiers for the Christians during the second Crusade by telling them that they were guaranteed entry to Heaven as long as they fought for him?

344 (edited by Seco Fett Monday, February 23, 2009 2:24 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I could answer you guys, but to what end? We'll just go back and forth into eternity. Oh, wait, you don't believe in eternity. Oh, well. You guys need to be a little more tolerant. We all do.

And yes, the Catholics are messed up(in my view), but I don't know why the people say the Crusades were so bad. I mean, the Muslims invaded in the west, and the Christians defended and pressed forward in the east.

And what "scientific evidence" do you mean?

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

The world only has only been completely covered in water ONCE and that was very early in Earths history. The Earth had cooled down enough to harden crust by then, and water vapor was introduced in the form of crashing comets. Eventually (after a very long time) the Earths surface area became 100% water. There wasn't a flood, and it didn't happen overnight. And there was no recorded history for it because there was no life on Earth at all then. And the water didn't go anywhere. The raging volcanoes beneath the ocean surface continued to erupt until they broke sealevel, and continued to erupt. And thus the early continents were born.

Half Dragon, half human, 100% Fett!

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Seco Fett wrote:

I could answer you guys, but to what end? We'll just go back and forth into eternity. Oh, wait, you don't believe in eternity. Oh, well. You guys need to be a little more tolerant. We all do.

And yes, the Catholics are messed up(in my view), but I don't know why the people say the Crusades were so bad. I mean, the Muslims invaded in the west, and the Christians defended and pressed forward in the east.

And what "scientific evidence" do you mean?

I hope you know that, since about when the Scientific Revolution began, the question to understand who we are and where we came from (this actually goes back to the Renaissance) has always been attempted to be answered. And in the coming to that answer, loads of information about the rest of the planet has been discovered.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Commander Appo wrote:

All religion does is cause suffering, and waste time.

Actual religion is a great thing, it's the zealots and manipulators who twist it and their followers who cause the problems.

take it easy baby take it as it comes

348 (edited by Seco Fett Monday, February 23, 2009 6:33 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Cece, you talk as if it is fact. We're back to story number one now. It is just a theory as is everything else as to how life began.

As to a record of a ww flood, how about "Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water, all over the earth." And about the ""How are we here?" question, it's Noah's Ark. Well, it was actually God's Ark, but Noah built it.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I can't believe people are still posting in this.  It's only a debate that will go back and forth and back and forth.  Rinse and repeat.  Presuppositions are nearly impossible to overcome when debating such topics.  Think what you will, but there is no point trying to convince the other that your perspective is right and their's is wrong as people here are obviously rooted in what they believe.

[i]Like I told your captain, the orphange attacked me.  It was self-defense.[/i]  -Richard the Warlock  [url]http://archive.lfgcomic.com/lfg0002.gif[/url]

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I told them that like twice now, but they just don't listen to me.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.