Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Seco Fett wrote:

Yes they can, but they are also easily interpreted as history. I haven't heard a theory that works evolution into Genesis yet. The Gap Theory and the Day-Age Theory have been proved unreasonable, and if they're just symbols, then what do they mean?

As in what does the book of Genesis mean if its a symbol?
I suppose some examples are as followed:
-Well, presumably that God created everything. (Creation)
-Humans were put on this Earth to be caretakers of it. (Creation)
-Humans are prone to temptation and sin. (Adam and Eve)
-If God is displeased with you, don't take it out on those he is pleased with./If things aren't going your way, don't take it out on those for which it is. (Cain and Abel)
-With God's help anyone can overcome anything (Noah's ark)
-God's promises are fulfilled (Noah's ark/Abraham)
-Rape is wrong (Sodom and Gomorrah)
-Tests will come, they will be harsh, don't lose faith. (Abraham and Isaac)

But then again, interpreting a book as a symbol can lead to ignoring parts and one always has to worry as to whether they are ignoring important parts or ignoring parts that were meant to be ignored. That's probably the biggest problem with taking it as symbolism.

Disciple Sift Through Lies; Few Grains Of Truth Be Known...

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Well, first off, nothing in the Bible was meant to be ignored! But if Genesis is all symbolism, then why would God create a world in which Death, Pain, Disease, and Suffering are present. That would be a terrible god who would make us go through all that evil from nothing!

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Seco Fett wrote:

Well, first off, nothing in the Bible was meant to be ignored!

Indeed. Which is why the symbolic point of view has a problem as it is hard to  make everything into a symbol. That said however If someone cannot accept a book no matter what, is it not better to take what they can from the book rather than ignore it completely. Obviously you disagree with the whole idea of not accepting a book no matter what, so I suppose my suggestion is void in advance.

Seco Fett wrote:

But if Genesis is all symbolism, then why would God create a world in which Death, Pain, Disease, and Suffering are present. That would be a terrible god who would make us go through all that evil from nothing!

He didn't, He created a world with good in it which by default had to include a deficiency of good in it. A deficiency in good is bad.

Allow me to provide an example. How would you know you were happy if you had never been "not" happy?
Surely you would just consider happy to be "normal" if you hadn't experienced an alternative that was not as good as happy.

A metaphorical reference to this is "How would you know you were alive if no one died?" If there is no other option to consider it is just considered "normal"

Likewise God cannot create a good world without bad. How would we be able to know when what is good is good if there is never any bad to compare it to.


The classic comeback to what you have said is why would God have created man if he knew he would sin? Why did he not create man so he did not sin, then there would not be death, pain, disease and suffering? Better yet why did he create the forbidden tree? These are similar questions. Surely if God created a world in which there was temptation to take fruit from the tree then God created a little bit of bad in there. It depends whether you consider temptation bad.

At the end of the day, I don't think any of these questions matter. You can take one of two responses to this

The first I call the Ivan way (after Ivan Karamazov from The Brothers Karamazov)
There is evil in the world. This evil can be against people who by human standards are innocent and undeserving. Therefore I reject God, God is unfair, unjust and does not deserve worship.

The second is the Job way (after Job in the Biblical Book: Job)
There is evil in the world. This evil can be against people who by human standards are innocent and undeserving. However I am not God, I do not know what God knows, all I have is faith that God is good. Therefore I trust God is doing right and worship him as a result of this trust.

So some big things to consider there. Once again I'm not trying to cross any lines here, I respect your beliefs. I just enjoy philosophical and therefore theological discussion.

Disciple Sift Through Lies; Few Grains Of Truth Be Known...

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Humorbot5 wrote:

He didn't, He created a world with good in it which by default had to include a deficiency of good in it. A deficiency in good is bad.

Sorry, I find that to be complete bullshit. God intended to make the world happy, but because of people like Lucifer, evil was allowed to exist in order to balance out things. Or, if you ask me, I prefer the Greek explanation, the tale of Pandora's Box.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Good. Bad. OK, if you know your Bible(which I am very happy to talk to someone who knows what they're talking about), then you know that there was no good or bad. It was a perfect world before sin. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they realized that they were naked. That was when bad came into the world. The tree was called The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There was no good, or bad. There was no such thing as a conscience.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

These arguments tend to become circular after a while so I have stayed away from posting but I have been following along.

I read the Bible a great deal, everyday. I am not a christian because I fall waaaay too short of the grace of God and I don't want to be a hypocrite.

What I did want to throw in, however, is the very, very old idea that if God created all and everything, if God knows all and everything, if God is everywhere and everything...you get the point, any discussion about God, BY HUMANS, is going to lack an essential frame a reference. If one admits that there is anything at all that is beyond God's control then, by default, it's not God. You can't have it both ways. It's like the myth of free will... if God knows everything that has been, is and will be he also knows all of the decisions of each and every person zillions of years before they are even born. In many ways I think Muslims have this part of the story right. I think the Muslim understanding of God is much more reverent. All and everything, love-hate, good-evil, play-doh, hamsters, etc. is created by an omnipotent God who decides all and everything.

Long-story-short...when we talk about God and evolution it is necessary to talk in absolutes. These are either/or propositions. As humans I think we lack the perspective to understand the world if we see it in absolute terms. This especially applies to the old testament. God flat out kills or causes to be killed thousands of people just because they didn't play according to his rules.  (Read the old testament and see how many times he kills off a few thousand people at-a-time as the jews make their way to the promised land.)

I think a more subtle understanding of theology is necessary if we are going to answer the big questions in life.

"D'oh!"
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Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Hehe.  Predestination vs. Free will.  Another debate for another entirely different time.  Good points you raise.

[i]Like I told your captain, the orphange attacked me.  It was self-defense.[/i]  -Richard the Warlock  [url]http://archive.lfgcomic.com/lfg0002.gif[/url]

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Um, I won't get mad. But I am offended a bit. I'm Free Will Baptist.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Fett_II wrote:
Humorbot5 wrote:

He didn't, He created a world with good in it which by default had to include a deficiency of good in it. A deficiency in good is bad.

Sorry, I find that to be complete bullshit. God intended to make the world happy, but because of people like Lucifer, evil was allowed to exist in order to balance out things. Or, if you ask me, I prefer the Greek explanation, the tale of Pandora's Box.

Pandora's box, as in evil is released but not without hope?

I'm sorry I didn't make it clear, but I was trying to put forward an opinion or reasoned argument that some would put forward. Although, I don't particularly see what the distinction between "God created good so there must be bad" and "Evil was allowed to exist in order to balance things"
Unless I am mistaken, that's what I meant.


Seco Fett wrote:

Good. Bad. OK, if you know your Bible(which I am very happy to talk to someone who knows what they're talking about), then you know that there was no good or bad. It was a perfect world before sin. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they realized that they were naked. That was when bad came into the world. The tree was called The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There was no good, or bad. There was no such thing as a conscience.

I do know my Bible.
You misunderstand me. The opinions I was putting forward were if "Genesis" and the "Adam and Eve version of events" are not accepted. i.e. Where evil came from if it didn't come from eating the apple in the garden of eden.
What you are saying is true according to Genesis, but I we are talking cross-purposes unfortunately.

Disciple Sift Through Lies; Few Grains Of Truth Be Known...

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

I think we're BOTH messed up! LOL! I meant that I'm glad that you DO know your Bible! I think we're probably on the same page, but yeah...:)

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

236 (edited by Humorbot5 Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:43 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Seco Fett wrote:

I think we're BOTH messed up! LOL! I meant that I'm glad that you DO know your Bible! I think we're probably on the same page, but yeah...:)

Yes indeed. One of the main problems with internet chatting unfortunately.


tachyonblade wrote:

These arguments tend to become circular after a while so I have stayed away from posting but I have been following along.

I read the Bible a great deal, everyday. I am not a christian because I fall waaaay too short of the grace of God and I don't want to be a hypocrite.

What I did want to throw in, however, is the very, very old idea that if God created all and everything, if God knows all and everything, if God is everywhere and everything...you get the point, any discussion about God, BY HUMANS, is going to lack an essential frame a reference. If one admits that there is anything at all that is beyond God's control then, by default, it's not God. You can't have it both ways. It's like the myth of free will... if God knows everything that has been, is and will be he also knows all of the decisions of each and every person zillions of years before they are even born. In many ways I think Muslims have this part of the story right. I think the Muslim understanding of God is much more reverent. All and everything, love-hate, good-evil, play-doh, hamsters, etc. is created by an omnipotent God who decides all and everything.

Long-story-short...when we talk about God and evolution it is necessary to talk in absolutes. These are either/or propositions. As humans I think we lack the perspective to understand the world if we see it in absolute terms. This especially applies to the old testament. God flat out kills or causes to be killed thousands of people just because they didn't play according to his rules.  (Read the old testament and see how many times he kills off a few thousand people at-a-time as the jews make their way to the promised land.)

I think a more subtle understanding of theology is necessary if we are going to answer the big questions in life.

If you don't mind me saying so, I find that idea that you are not a Christian because you don't want to be a hypocrite really quite fascinating. In a good way.

Yes. I understand all of what you say and there is this idea that God knows all and therefore we cannot have free will, our choices, our actions, everything is predetermined and understood by God. God is not temporal, that is, he is not "in" space and time, therefore he cannot "know something before it happened" because for God there is no "before" or "after" as there is no time. Following on from that, we are all predestined to go to Heaven or predestined to go to Hell.

Now, in my mind, whether you believe and accept that idea as truth, one must act as if one does have free will, as if one can change the future and as one can get oneself to heaven. As while God may know which of us goes, we don't, so from our point of view in temporal existence we still have a choice.

And yes, in relation to your second point on talking about God and I realise this is a slight tangent to what you were saying. Some people have said it is pointless and foolhardy to speak of religion or God because neither can be verified and we cannot possible hope to understand either should they exist. I don't agree with that view as I enjoy talking about it, I enjoy hearing of people's views, thoughts and feelings on God and to an extent that gives my own faith strength.

Now what my faith is....that's another story.

Disciple Sift Through Lies; Few Grains Of Truth Be Known...

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

nah, i think the idea of predestination (in the sense of you are either going to heaven or hell) is moronic.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

My earlier post brings to mind another reason I can't consider myself a christian...."only the Sith deal in absolutes." I have a hard time seeing the world in black-and-white terms and that's what a question like, "do you believe in evolution or creation" forces people to do, not on this list but I mean in a more general way. These kinds of debates are starting to break apart society and the world. No matter how you put it, if you consider yourself a born-again christian, everyone that is not is going to hell, and that is not something anyone wants to hear.

What I am saying is that modern christianity can be off-putting if the delivery is not handled in a delicate way.

I hope God is there but I can't be positive so I am not going to commit to something without being convinced.

"D'oh!"
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Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Sometimes I feel unsure about fate and free will. A lot of the time, I feel we all make our choices, and nothing is predetirmined. But, then I see the future (no this is not some BS I really do see the future in my dreams....nothing special though. Just tests, or eating out. There are more signifigant [game realated] dreams though) and then I wonder if there really is free will.

Half Dragon, half human, 100% Fett!

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Hmmm you see the future...please dream that my parents will take me to a Japanese grill on Sunday = ) Pleeeze?

But as for free will,  agree with you, and you too Humorbot. I think like you CCDF, in the part about free will. We make our own choices. But I think that God knows what choices we will make. And as for you HB5, good job on expressing how God is not bound by time. Saves me some for not having to write all that. lol

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

look, this topic has no point, you can throw facts at each other all day long but nobody is going to change their beliefs because of what was said on a star wars forum, no one.

i say drop it, close it, and agree to disagree

this is going no where

Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

It's FUN! JK! That's a good idea. But it'll probably never stop. Evolutionists and Christians are some of the two most hard-headed people around! But you know regimas, Fettism, which you profess to believe, is not without it's problems...LOL!

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

243 (edited by Humorbot5 Friday, January 30, 2009 4:21 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Fett_II wrote:

nah, i think the idea of predestination (in the sense of you are either going to heaven or hell) is moronic.

I tend to agree.

tachyonblade wrote:

My earlier post brings to mind another reason I can't consider myself a christian...."only the Sith deal in absolutes." I have a hard time seeing the world in black-and-white terms and that's what a question like, "do you believe in evolution or creation" forces people to do, not on this list but I mean in a more general way. These kinds of debates are starting to break apart society and the world. No matter how you put it, if you consider yourself a born-again christian, everyone that is not is going to hell, and that is not something anyone wants to hear.

What I am saying is that modern christianity can be off-putting if the delivery is not handled in a delicate way.

I hope God is there but I can't be positive so I am not going to commit to something without being convinced.

Indeed, indeed, indeed.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Hard-line atheists think it's one or the other.
Hard-line Christians/Religious believers think it's one or the other.
And I, like you, don't agree with it.

Others clearly do and I tend to think they need that. I don't think they can have it up for discussion, everything must be black and white if not for any other reason than they need the security that comes with that approach.

CeciliaCrimsondragonFett wrote:

Sometimes I feel unsure about fate and free will. A lot of the time, I feel we all make our choices, and nothing is predetirmined. But, then I see the future (no this is not some BS I really do see the future in my dreams....nothing special though. Just tests, or eating out. There are more signifigant [game realated] dreams though) and then I wonder if there really is free will.

I don't doubt that, I have the same.
I think it is important to act as if we have free will whether we do or not. Not to think "ah well, there's nothing I can do to fight it so I'll act as I've always acted, it's gone fine so far" or "I know I'm gonna end up doing this, so I better do it" if it's something you have realised is immoral.
I think people should always fight immorality whether they do indeed end up doing it in the end due to pressures beyond their control or not.
I tend to reckon whether we truly have free will or not isn't something we should consider, we should assume we do and act accordingly.
I personally think if you believe everything you do to be determined you end up more immoral than if you consider at least some choices to be free, probably because you're more likely to be lazy about changing yourself or not if you feel you are determined to act a certain way.
But yes, I have very recently studied Free will and determinism so that remains fresh in my mind.

Seco Fett wrote:

Hmmm you see the future...please dream that my parents will take me to a Japanese grill on Sunday = ) Pleeeze?

But as for free will,  agree with you, and you too Humorbot. I think like you CCDF, in the part about free will. We make our own choices. But I think that God knows what choices we will make. And as for you HB5, good job on expressing how God is not bound by time. Saves me some for not having to write all that. lol

Thank you

regimas wrote:

look, this topic has no point, you can throw facts at each other all day long but nobody is going to change their beliefs because of what was said on a star wars forum, no one.

i say drop it, close it, and agree to disagree

this is going no where

Certainly you have misunderstood the reason I am speaking here sir, but I cannot necessarily speak for anyone else.
I post on this particular thread for discussion (as I have said), to hear other people's views, thoughts and ideas and consider them.
I have several passions and one of them just so happens to be philosophy, so that explains that/
I have no intention of changing anyone's views, I realise fully people need the opinions they express here. To "poo-poo" them would be downright satanic of me or anyone else in my opinion, but to hear them is to help them understand their views.
Honestly I find there is no better way to understand one's own thoughts and feelings on their own beliefs than to tell them to someone else.
And although I haven't specifically said "Tell me what you believe", by saying what I have said I reckon I have gotten some of the people here to express their views and ideas here that they may not have expressed to anyone recently or at all.
Alternatively perhaps the people here tell their views to all who are willing to listen. Those people I believe enjoy telling anyone their views. I suppose it's hard to understand but there are many people who are just satisfied to know that they have expressed their views.
And similarly I believe I am much more providing someone who will listen, respond and discuss than someone who argues with them because he disagrees.
Obviously when I am putting forward views I favour I have been less to point out the pit falls in the argument, but certainly some views I favour that I have put forward I have poked holes in.

But yes. (Very long post, I apologise) I had already agreed to disagree about beliefs before I posted in this thread, I had not however necessarily agreed to disagree on the idea that this topic has no point. I believe it does and I believe I have put forward the reasons why it has a point clearly and informatively.

That said, at this point I will agree to disagree with you should you still feel this thread has no point.
Thank you for reading any/all/none (delete as applicable) of this.

Disciple Sift Through Lies; Few Grains Of Truth Be Known...

244 (edited by tachyonblade Saturday, January 31, 2009 2:07 am)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

You know...there is another aspect to all of this that we may all be missing...
Maybe the Hindus are right and we are all doomed to go around-and-and around in the endless cycle of samsara until we finally reach enlightenment.

I'm not really sure about that either...but as I was saying above, I think it is pretty foolish to think you have it all figured out just because what you believe is written in a book. I mean, after all, there's the book of Mormon, The Koran, the Bagavad gita, The writtings of Baha Ula, even Dianetics...

I tend, personally, to take Homer Simpsons' view on religion...I worship God in my own way and I am sure that God being God understands that...if he doesn't then he wouldn't be God.

There is a lot of psychology, philosophy and metaphysics behind this kind of discussion but it really comes down to is something one of my professors said when I was at university...

"You should never "believe" anything, you should be convinced"  and if you are that should be enough.

I find that the people who bark the loudest, on both sides of the debate, are those who's convictions are most at question.

As Yoda says, "you will know when you are at peace, calm."

"D'oh!"
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Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Who's "Homer Simpson"? God's plan of salvation is so simple that even a mature three year old could understand it! A-B-C. Ask. Believe. Confess. If you have any grasp on God at all, you'll know that He is VERY real.

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

246 (edited by tachyonblade Saturday, January 31, 2009 7:34 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Seco Fett wrote:

Who's "Homer Simpson"? God's plan of salvation is so simple that even a mature three year old could understand it! A-B-C. Ask. Believe. Confess. If you have any grasp on God at all, you'll know that He is VERY real.

Yes. I am very sure that for some God is real and he has a plan buuuut...

There is no one on Earth who can convince me that God is real other than myself. And, this is true for everything for everybody almost all of the time.

Again, as I said above, people on both sides of the argument tend to see things in absolutist terms.  I believe this helps no one and creates divisions among the world's people.

I think it is great that people can find comfort, guidance and security in religion. I studied anthropology in grad. school and I have a pretty solid grasp of the cultural patterns of religions.  I enjoy studying about religion a great deal. However, all of my studies have left me with only two conclusion.

1.) Everyone, everywhere, thinks their way of living life, especially religion, is the correct, true way to do so.
(So what gives one religion the right to claim dominance over any other?)
2.) There are far more similarities between most of the major religions in the world than differences. (For many great discussions on this topic I recommend reading Joseph Campbell's MASKS OF GOD  series.)

Long-story-short: Just because you love Vishnu does not mean you hate God and are going to Hell. I feel very confident that God will make his own decisions about who goes where, and everything else as well.  Being self-righteous doesn't help anybody and it can be very derisive.

P.S. Homer Simpson, ya know yellow cartoon character, you never saw that episode I guess?

"D'oh!"
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Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

whoa humorbot,

take it easy, you make good point

Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

tachyonblade wrote:

I tend, personally, to take Homer Simpsons' view on religion...I worship God in my own way and I am sure that God being God understands that...if he doesn't then he wouldn't be God.

See, that really doesn't make sense--it disagrees most major religions today. You can't have more than one true religion. That is what give people the reason to say that their religion is the only way.

You can't expect your version of god to accept you simply because you believe that he exists, especially if you don't even know what god you're "worshiping". Thats just making up your own god. You can't tailor a god to your own desires. If you don't know what god you worship, how can you follow the laws he's laid down? How can you follow him?

Its one thing to follow a religion, another to make your own up.

This is why I've not gotten involved in this. I knew It'd end badly. Sorry for coming across antagonistic, but it makes no sense no matter what direction your coming from.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yff3jH8NECs]"Touch my Awesome Button."[/url]
--Captain Dynamic--

249 (edited by Seco Fett Sunday, February 1, 2009 1:42 pm)

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Islam has the right to dominate all other religions, because the Koran says to. Similarities? Isn't it possible then that religion is just a copy of an original? What is that original? "Well it coulden't be...Christianity!"

Some may run a short while, but none of them would bide.

Re: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Werda Verd wrote:
tachyonblade wrote:

I tend, personally, to take Homer Simpsons' view on religion...I worship God in my own way and I am sure that God being God understands that...if he doesn't then he wouldn't be God.

See, that really doesn't make sense--it disagrees most major religions today. You can't have more than one true religion. That is what give people the reason to say that their religion is the only way.

You can't expect your version of god to accept you simply because you believe that he exists, especially if you don't even know what god you're "worshiping". Thats just making up your own god. You can't tailor a god to your own desires. If you don't know what god you worship, how can you follow the laws he's laid down? How can you follow him?

Its one thing to follow a religion, another to make your own up.

This is why I've not gotten involved in this. I knew It'd end badly. Sorry for coming across antagonistic, but it makes no sense no matter what direction your coming from.

You are kind of making my point for me here...I don't believe in organized religion on any level because it is, in the end, all arbitrary! People believe whatever it is they want to believe. There are people who consider themselves christians who follow rules and dogma that are not even in the Bible.

But more importantly, what I was trying to say was
1.) that people shouldn't judge others' religious views.
2.) No one should be a slave to ideology. ( and I will never, ever believe there is only one true religion, I think that is ethnocentric, self-centered and myopic!)
3.) People should have a sense of humor, I am sure God does.

"D'oh!"
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